Jan. 5, 2021

Covering One of the Greatest Teams of All-Time, Storytelling in Sports and Knowing When You're Burned Out With Brody Miller | Ep. 2

Covering One of the Greatest Teams of All-Time, Storytelling in Sports and Knowing When You're Burned Out With Brody Miller | Ep. 2

"The reasons people start doing something are always very, very different from why they keep doing them."


As the LSU beat reporter for The Athletic, Brody Miller (@BrodyAMiller) covered LSU during their 2019 national championship season, writing numerous features on one of the greatest college football teams of all-time, and was selected to cast a vote in the 2019 Heisman Trophy all before he turned 26.


He was the Managing Editor at the Indiana Daily Student during college and later held positions at The Indianapolis Star, The Clarion Ledger and NOLA.com.


In this episode:

Brody's advice to aspiring journalists (4:34)

How a little luck played into his career (9:53)

Covering one of the greatest college football teams of all time (18:20)

Why it's the stories within sports that Brody enjoys (36:26)

Realizing he was overworked and how he brought himself back in balance (1:04:26)

How technology has altered journalism and entertainment (1:33:22)

Brody's advice to himself (2:06:00)

How he interviews when covering a sensitive subject (2:08:15)


Check out our website and follow us on social media for show notes, transcripts and highlights.


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Intro music created by Muscle Tough. IG: @muscletoughband


Transcript

Connor Heine  0:02  
going on in one Welcome to after school program I'm Connor Hein, and with me is my good pal, Zach McHale.

Zach McHale  0:08  
Our guest today is Brody Miller. He's the LSU beat reporter for the athletic and also co host the hold that podcast podcast with T BOB HERBERT. He's written countless speeches and had his stories and Intel retweeted by the biggest names in sports, including Adam schefter.

Connor Heine  0:20  
We talked about why Brody loves sports and the stories they tell the cliches to avoid when writing, knowing that what you want changes as life goes on, and how a little luck

Zach McHale  0:31  
played into his career, we'll get into how he was influenced by the heyday of Sports Center, knowing when to change direction, realizing when you're burnt out, and the future of journalism and media in the digital age. Here is Brody, Milton. Brody, if you want to just describe your, your position, and then what you do, I guess, between, you know, writing your articles and then running that show?

Brody Miller  0:51  
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I'm the LSU beat reporter for the athletic. So I'm basically you know, just the LSU you know, reporter covers LSU football for the athletic which and a reporter

Unknown Speaker  1:01  
Yes.

Brody Miller  1:05  
Well, yeah, no, and the athletic for people who don't even know is, you know, it's a, it's a sports media company. And it's like, relatively new, like five or six years old. But it's, I mean, the idea is kind of like less of your, you know, day to day, you know, 20 stories a week, kind of, like crank out content, more of just like, you know, less stories, but deeper, you know, and like taking time on stuff and actually reporting it out. And like, letting us kind of do bigger features and stuff. So it's kind of a perfect job in that sense for somebody who likes likes to do what I like doing, where we actually can, you know, have freedom to actually chase stuff we want to chase. And then on top of that, yeah, I host hold that podcast with T Bob a bear, which is a, you know, a nerdy LSU football podcast, so it's kind of a

Unknown Speaker  1:44  
Yeah, that's, that's

Brody Miller  1:45  
what I do.

Zach McHale  1:46  
Mm hmm. And, yeah, I mean, like this job, especially in terms of writing features, because that was your specialty. I mean, that was what you really enjoy doing, you

Brody Miller  1:54  
weren't too big on having to pick up the, the shorter kind of when you have to pay the paper before that, where you had to kind of get your short, I don't know, attention grabbing stories or and just a lot of like, aggregating or like, this guy hurt his toe, which by the way, this stuff is important. Like, I'm not criticizing any like that stuff is very, very important. It's just not like what I love doing. But yeah, just like the little news, you know, like, this guy stubbed his toe today, and he's day to day for the game. You know, like, that's just the kind of stuff that's like an ad word posts. And I just kind of tend to believe like, the way I view the world, like, I just think that should be a tweet. I don't think it should be a story and like, like, again, I want because I am a sixers fan or whatever. Like, I want reporters putting that news out there. Like I want to read it. It's just right. It's not what I love doing. And yeah, so this lets me kind of, you know, for example, just tweet that and then actually spend my day working on say, you know, a 2000 word feature on the star wide receiver. Look into some cool technology trend LC is doing you know, stuff like that, right?

Zach McHale  2:51  
Yeah. Yeah, I remember a while ago, you had written that article about what was it? Was it the turn? I think it was like the ball throwing machine or Yeah, this was this was a while ago, I'd seen that.

Brody Miller  3:02  
Yeah, that was last like October Sonic. Yeah. But yeah, it was it's basically a robotic quarterback. And it was like, and it's basically Yeah, it's it's a rip off a judge a jugs machine now that everyone knows they if there was bought baseballs and stuff like that, but it's a jugs machine that actually learned how to like read routes and throw to a location and like track the receivers speed and like, actually, like know where to throw the ball to and it's just like, wild so it's like revolutionary out teams practice because now like, you don't have to worry about an arm strength. You don't you know, like you don't worry about throwing too many reps on quarterbacks arm or you don't have to worry about like, your receiver can just go and doesn't need to have a quarterback there. So yeah, it was actually really fascinating. And those guys are smart ass dudes. We're trying to achieve a lot of things in their life.

Zach McHale  3:43  
Right? Yeah. No wonder no one of the receivers are doing so well. Now in the league.

Brody Miller  3:47  
True. Yeah. No, honestly, that is, I guess it's a little bit on that for sure.

Zach McHale  3:53  
Yeah, I think with with your right and your I mean, I just read one from a little while back about that dieback, who was still in high school. He went to IMG and then he was going to LSU but just real hard ass all into football. Like that was all he did. What was his name? You remember you?

Brody Miller  4:10  
I Rex? Yeah.

Zach McHale  4:10  
Yeah. Yeah. And what was really interesting with that article was that he almost didn't say anything in the entire article. But you just kind of aggregated information from all those coaches and his mom to just kind of paint this very clear picture of who he was. Yeah, I

Brody Miller  4:26  
mean, obviously, this isn't like a journalism podcast, you actually go down that rabbit hole. But yeah, I think the thing you know, it's just like, I just think you have to view things and I think this is true of not just like writing a story, it's true of like, almost literally anything you do is just remembering that like 20 other hundreds of other people do the same job you do pretty much any job I think that's kind of true. So like, just think, you know, it's just like how somebody else can write this and I think that's where if I was doing when I talked to like journalism classes and stuff I say, like read as much as many stories as you can, even the bad ones just read everything. Not because you want to like learn from it just because like having The institutional knowledge like the context of like how other people right, should teach you how not to write, not that it's bad just like, think about things differently. So it's like, you know, I'm doing a story like that. I just think like, the basic like me talk the kid talking about how like hard he works and like how much he loves football, like, it's fine. It's just pretty boring. Like, you're never really going to learn something about somebody by them talking about themselves and generics, you know, like, you're not so it's just like, it was more interesting to talk to like his trainer, like talk about how like, I don't think this kid has a life. You know, like that stuff's more entertaining. Or just like, you know, listening to this former Tampa Bay Bucs DB coach who's now his DB coach and IMG like IMG talk about how like, he's the most dedicated kid I've seen since like DeAngelo Hall, you know, it's like that. So it's more interesting than this kid talking about himself. All right. I think that's just the way that that's not always the case, by the way, like,

Zach McHale  5:49  
you know, his kids

Brody Miller  5:51  
doing a big profile, Michael Jordan, like, trust me, I want to hear from Michael Jordan. But yeah, he situations different for sure. Yeah.

Zach McHale  5:57  
Especially maybe when it's somebody you know, you're not too familiar with or he's not too big yet. But even when you're saying when he was training, and all these NFL guys are like, Oh, so what team do you play for? And this kids in high school?

Brody Miller  6:09  
Yeah. And also, I mean, that's the other thing. It's like, That kid is just an interesting kid. And by the way, he's like three picks already this season. He's doing really well as a true freshman and I, but yeah, it's just like, the key isn't even the writing or the reporting. It's just like finding what to report on. You know what I mean? It's just like that to just an interesting kid mother, like, he is not like your normal 17 or 18 year old, like, he's just a weird, like, he's almost, you know, like Joe barrows like that to where they're just like, weird hyperfocus dudes who like this is their whole life. And like, those are the most interesting guys to write about. Just finding people who are different, you know, the same way you want to write something different, right?

Unknown Speaker  6:41  
Yeah, absolutely.

Connor Heine  6:43  
Yeah. So it sounds like there was, you know, a moment where you're writing more of those articles about stubbing toes, and we're waking up with sore throats. And now it sounds like, you know, you push past that, what was that moment? Do you feel like when it sounds like you have more freedom now? anymore?

Brody Miller  7:01  
That's a good question. I just, I think the thing is, it's like, I don't think there was ever a point where I'm like, I love this stuff. It's just it's just part of the job. And like I said, it should be you know, like, if you were an artist, you'd be reporter for The New Orleans times Picayune. Like, you need to do that stuff that is very, very important. But I mean, even since I was in college, I just always had more of like a, you know, like, you guys know, like, I'm a movie nerd, and like a TV nerd. And like, I just like storytelling much more than I like, that part of it. By the way, I broke like, I had to break some, like, relatively, like, you know, like, injury, like COVID news today. Like that stuff's always gonna be thrilling. And part of it, like, there's literally no greater rush in the world and breaking news, but there's nothing like it. It's like, well, like Zach used to say there's no greater thrill than a joke landing during a musical on stage. And it's like that, you know, and, and so it's the best thing on earth. So like, Yeah, I love that part. But maybe

Connor Heine  7:48  
not in a musical maybe just on stage.

Zach McHale  7:50  
Nope, gotta be a musical

Brody Miller  7:52  
unclarified you

Connor Heine  7:55  
know, but musical star was known for years.

Brody Miller  7:57  
I don't know if you've heard, but these are Footloose for fans of the show. So yeah, I, I always just prefer, you know, like, things that are, you know, figuring out what makes people tick, you know, and the stuff that it's like, what's, what's the central complication in somebody's life? And how does it feel like,

Connor Heine  8:12  
do you feel like you're writing more of those stories now? Then, you have salutely?

Brody Miller  8:16  
Yeah. And I wouldn't even say more. But like, I know what you're saying. Like, it was like, I tried to do the same amount before, you know, it's like maybe two of those kinds of stories a week, which is still a lot to ask, because a lot of recording goes into those. But then I'd be like, try, I'd be trying to do that on top of writing 15 other stories that week on the normal day to days of things. And I mean, I was granted, I was only like, 24, I'm not going to act like I did this for 30 years, or so. Not for me at all. I'm just saying like, it burns you out. If you want to try to really do both, right? Like, it takes a toll on you. And then it's like, Now, granted, I have a job. Now that totally gives the freedom to let like you if you're not careful, my job, now you can get lazy because you don't have something on your ass as much. So you got to be careful. But like, yeah, now it's like, I have more time. But it doesn't mean I should work less it means I should actually just work more on one thing and make it good. So say I'm only writing four stories a week, I'm gonna try to write for like, actually good ones. I'm not burning out. And I have time to you know, like, hanging out with my girlfriend at night, which like, be honest, I was at times pick, I would be working from like, 7am to 9pm during football season or later, and then just go to bed and wake up. And nobody likes the guy who's like, look how hard I work. But it just it sucks. And now it's like, I can find I also I'm the first admit I'm incredibly lucky to have the job I have. But it's just like, yeah, I can do both and actually write stories I'm relatively proud of. So it's a perfect world.

Zach McHale  9:35  
That is that is something I did want to touch on was was almost, I don't even I don't want to call it luck. But the two bounces that you made between jobs. And just the I mean, you know what I'm talking about. Just Just that coincidence between the two of those places. Could you elaborate on exactly what happened between shoot, I

Brody Miller  9:57  
mean, there's so many I mean, I always tell people it's like literally all luck and it's getting to know people and like no one hates the word no one everyone hates the term networking. But networking is really, really important. And like, yeah, I mean, I'll say that when I was coming out of college, you know, first I interned at the end star coming out of college and then Indianapolis Star, and I was finishing up there and the way it was told to me was basically, you know, the Clarion ledger, the main paper in Mississippi and Jackson, Mississippi, I mean, it's like me a lot of people probably haven't heard of it, but it's like a launching pad paper. It's where like, Ian Rapoport got his start. And Ross Dellinger, you know, all these just amazing reporters, Courtney Cronin used to be on now like all these people, and basically from what I understand, they basically like tricked the head editor that they were going to open like a producer job, but in reality, they called it that because it's like, more appealing but they were going to have it was basically for me to just be like a general assignment writer basically just be like a features writer or something like that, you know, right out of college and, and they basically, like tricked him and they basically like a two week window to hire it. Like it was because it was like, they were gonna, like basically, they knew the paper was going through hard times. And like if they didn't hire that right away, they'll probably get pulled. And essentially, what happened was the editor who Kellenberger just like texted this guy, Zach Osterman is one of my best friends. You know, when I was in college, he's the indie star, you reporter and he was like, Hey, you know, in a group chat, he's like, Hey, does anyone know anyone or like, you know, be good for this job? Do we hire him for cheap? And like, he was just like, hey, my friend, Brody, Miller. And that's literally how I got that job. Just a luck text during a one week window, you know, and just like, yeah, and they literally hired me three days later, because they had to pull the trigger, you know, and like, if Zach Ashman wasn't that text, I wouldn't have had that job. And then the better story I assume you're talking about is like, so then I go to the path from Clarion ledger, I go to, you know, nola.com, and we're on the times Picayune, and I'm, you know, I'm the LCB reporter, and the athletic eventually calls me and I accept the job with the athletic. And literally, I'll break it down for you. I signed my offer letter at like, 9am on that Thursday. And then at 1pm, at 1pm, we get an email from our bosses saying, like, Hey, guys, conference call and a half hour, everybody hop on it. And then at 130, the entire staff was like, we were bought out from a competitive paper, and the entire staff was laid off. Oh, I literally signed my offer letter five hours before I would have been fired. It's like, stuff like that. That's just pure luck. And like, you just can't make it up. And yeah, so that was, yeah, luck. Luck Absolutely. comes into these things. And I'm the first to admit it.

Zach McHale  12:24  
Yeah. And you know, it's not to say that it's all luck. I mean, obviously, this was, this has been something I mean, definitely a little luck, for sure.

Connor Heine  12:31  
But if you weren't in that position, already, you wouldn't have been the guy that to get picked up. Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker  12:38  
Yeah. Yeah.

Brody Miller  12:39  
I mean, yeah. I mean, of course, you know, what's what's coach? Gosh, he was old line are old. Well, luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Zach, and I live by that. No, it's taught me everything I live by.

Zach McHale  12:50  
Yeah, I know. Yeah. You really know that every time we talk.

Brody Miller  12:56  
I also always say, Man, at the end of every sentence, it's really weird.

Zach McHale  12:58  
Even if you're addressing a crowd of women.

Unknown Speaker  13:02  
that's problematic.

Zach McHale  13:06  
So I guess I want to go way back because, you know, we had before we talked with you, we talked with Matt Duncan, who was somebody who had kind of changed his career path, like in college, whereas you are feel like you were somebody who had a very clear idea of what you wanted to do from a really young age. I mean, when we were in elementary school, you could recite all the Super Bowl winners in any stat that you wanted. I mean, Mr. Morrow, or fifth grade teacher would have you picked the week's winners before the Sunday games. When did you start to hone down what you wanted to do? Like? When was it?

Connor Heine  13:43  
Like I was making money off of little Brody? How do you think that goes, Mr.

Zach McHale  13:46  
Morrow is a billionaire.

Unknown Speaker  13:52  
make money off?

Connor Heine  13:53  
18 year old Brody.

Brody Miller  13:57  
No, but I know what you're saying. I mean, first, I mean, my answer is like, yes. I always knew and also I very much didn't because I mean, yeah, like you said, I mean, literally, since we were eight years old. I feel like I always knew I wanted to be like some kind of sports reporter or something in that realm. And like I probably want to be like a sports center anchor and when I was younger, and then then I think when I was in high school, I probably wanted to be like a Bill Simmons asked like, you know, national column and it's like, here's what I think kind of guy and I always wanted to do that. And I went to iu for that reason. I went to journalism school for that reason, like I had a whole plan my whole life. I wanted to be a sports reporter. And that is now what I am but it's yes and no, because like, I always put it I always put it this way is this like amazing advice once I got from a mentor of mine, and he was like, it was actually not even advice about life. It was advice about like a story I was writing but it was actually like incredible life advice. And he's just like, the reasons people start doing something are always like very, very different for why they keep doing them. And I think that's like such a smart thing. Because Yeah, I've been doing I basically wanted to do this for 20 years, but that's not why I'm still doing it because I think I went to college like still wanting to be you know, like a Bill Simmons or something and wanting to to like be writing about, like, what I think of the LSU defense, you know, that kind of stuff. And then I think when I was like a sophomore in college, you know, I just present the Indian daily student, which is an incredible student paper. And I started like, surrounding myself with these people who have now gotten living working amazing jobs and doing amazing stuff. And like, everyone there, which is just incredible feature writers and I learned so much being surrounded by them just like storytelling and, and like some of the professors I have there. Oh, my goodness, they're just too good. I was not I was not good enough to be working with them. And they were. And like, by the time I think I was a junior in college, I think it occurred to me like, I actually hate that kind of writing. Like I hate like some first off I I love reading columnist, by the way so like, I don't want to actually say that, like, I think that's a important part of the process, too. But it's like, I don't enjoy that. Like, why does anyone care what some generic unathletic white guy thinks about this football game? Like, no, I want to hear what someone who knows what they're talking about things. And I fell in love. Like I said, with that storytelling part of it and actually did like, even though it doesn't seem like it, I did like a pretty big pivot in college of like, completely changing what I want to do. And, you know, I switch from being the school columnist to the school, you know, foot like football basketball reporter and, and I actually just, that's what I put my heart into. And then I had to, like, just trying to learn so much from people and all that stuff. And then, yes, I'm not really really answering your question. But yeah, I think it's just kind of a lesson in, in how you need to figure out what you actually want, and it's gonna change and it's gonna, like pivot and segue around a little bit. And I think now I'm doing literally what I love. And granted, yeah, I was, I took a pretty early path on what I wanted to do, I had a head start on it, like, I was able to make connections that when I graduated college, you know, I had opportunities, of course, that's part of it. But like, it also isn't like, you know, in Matt's case, for example, like he pivoted and like, you have to do that. Otherwise, you're gonna be really, really unhappy.

Zach McHale  16:46  
Right? If you're not reevaluating every once in a while and readjusting, then you're gonna find yourself where you some of you don't want to be where maybe you thought you wanted to be originally.

Brody Miller  16:55  
Yeah, it's like, you know, it's like my my girlfriend, for example, Claire, she she has this joke, that not even a joke. I think she firmly means this. But you know, she's not necessarily a big marriage person. But she she likes to say that she thinks marriages should be seven year contracts. And like, at the end at the end, you know, and it's like, it's like a free agent deal. And like at the five, six year mark, you know, you start talking like, are we gonna reopen? Are we going to extend this get another Supermax? Yeah, if I just had a really good few years of marriage, I don't even know what you get, what's the bonus? But

Zach McHale  17:24  
he goes, she goes, No, you're on, you're on a veteran's minimum.

Brody Miller  17:29  
We're training you to set Kansas City. But, ya know, anyway, My point being like, I love that, because it's just like, she also believes that, like, what you want is just gonna always change. Like, it's just like, very naive to think who you are, when you're 16 is going to be who you are, when you're 26 and who you are. 26, who you're gonna be when you're 32, you know, and like, it's just silly, because life's gonna happen, and life's gonna change. And like, I don't know, how much

Unknown Speaker  17:54  
longer but I want to do this, you know, I

Brody Miller  17:55  
really don't like I don't know how much I don't want to change my actual job. Like, I don't know how much longer I want to cover LSU specifically, you know, like, I'm already hitting a wall with that a little bit. You know, I'm to get fully transparent, you know, so it's just kind of a, it's a trick. I don't want to act like, smarter than I am. But it's just a thing we all are wrestling with.

Zach McHale  18:11  
Yeah. And also, maybe having gone on the ride that you did last year with the LSU team. I mean, it couldn't have gone any better in terms of for the beat writer of the team, you get to follow the Heisman winning candidate, and you get to follow the team and go win a national championship. Be the best offense of all time in college football.

Connor Heine  18:30  
I mean, now, we're gonna talk about luck playing into your career. That was pretty lucky.

Brody Miller  18:35  
Yeah, that is very good. Because when I took that job, you know, the year before OSHA, Ron had, like, lost the LSU had lost the Troy at home and like, they were pretty average. And when I took that job, it's all indications were, honestly, at OSHA, I was probably gonna get fired in a year. And it was like, Yeah, they were gonna win the gold ignite in three most years. And like, they just didn't look that inspiring. And all of a sudden, like, Joe burrow, walks in the door, like a month after I take that job from Ohio State. And then a year later, they hired Joe Brady, that's like 29 year old intern from the saints, and he becomes like, the hot now he's playing in the NFL coach and a few months, you know, and yeah, I mean, I think I was joking was actually over the phone a few months ago, I was just like, Listen, I'm 26 like, I'm probably going to cover another championship team my lifetime just Realistically speaking, I'll cover a lot of great teams but like, I feel like I've peaked in the sense that not like I peaked, but I will never cover another team as interesting as that team because like you guys have but it's not just they were good. There's tons of good teams like Alabama is good every year but it was like the head coaches occasion at OSHA Ron who had like the craziest career in the history of coaching and like Joe burrow the guy who didn't get the job at Ohio State and like every star on that team was like Justin Jefferson was a two star with no offers and Clyde Edwards who later was a three star and no one wanted and like, you know, just like everyone in the team was just an absurd story. Lloyd cushenberry now starting center for the Broncos was like the literal last guy they threw a BS offer to on signing day because they missed on other guys, you know, just like everyone was an absurd personality and like jamario Adjusting Jefferson or dancing after every touchdown during the gritty in college and like, it was just like, I'm like, how did I get this for like, every week, I had like an obvious feature to write like, and that's, I can promise you like, that's not normal. Like I'm struggling right now. So it's like, yeah, that was the luckiest year of my life.

Zach McHale  20:16  
Yeah. And it was awesome. You got to top that all off to with? Well, I mean, I guess the championship came after but you got to go and vote in the Heisman to in New York, which was fun because I was up there. So then we got our buddies together and got to hang out. But I guess what was that you

Connor Heine  20:30  
vote for it for the Heisman.

Brody Miller  20:34  
You know, Indiana, left guard. I think he's really good. Yeah, you

Zach McHale  20:37  
were hounding that guy

Brody Miller  20:38  
all year. But yeah, really good. Now for Joe burrow. Unfortunately. I did throw in I didn't know Derrick Brown is my third pick. I thought that was a defensive tackle on Auburn. Who's a stud?

Zach McHale  20:48  
I love a good defensive. Heisman.

Brody Miller  20:51  
Listen, it should be bass player college football and like, why would I like faking? put someone who's like not nearly as good like Jalen hertz. I didn't want to put Jalen hertz because like, I don't think Jalen hertz was that good. So I'm just like, cuz Yeah, story.

Unknown Speaker  21:04  
Coming back story. Sorry.

Brody Miller  21:05  
No, I Derrick Brown is just the good Derrick brown impacted games far more than most other players in college football. That guy like took up four blockers. So Derrick Brown, I might pick and I stand by that for third. Well, for third.

Unknown Speaker  21:17  
That's fair.

Connor Heine  21:18  
Just shifting back to, you know, yeah, the slight, I guess the slight change you made in your career trajectory, where you went from, you know, thinking you wanted to do more opinion pieces, that type of stuff. Do you think and then you realize you didn't like that? Do you think it doesn't sound like it was a lack of like, preparation and looking into the actual field? It sounds more like it was just experienced that did that. Would you agree with that statement?

Brody Miller  21:47  
Yeah. No, I love that. You put that way. Yeah. Cuz it was the opposite. Probably. I did, like so much research, right. And you're just doing it and like, it's just kind of it was a miserable or anything, but yeah, it just, it started. Like, it's, it's a lot of like, I think if I had to nail it down, it's almost like, sometimes you figure out why you like something while you're doing it. And what I mean by that is like, like you like I said, you guys know like, I am a movie nerd. And like, I love I love TV shows especially like mad men and shows like that, that are more about the writing than anything right and stuff like that, or like the wire and and my point there is like, it's like I was loved those things. And then all of a sudden, I kind of got to getting older and I actually don't even think I realized that since like a year ago, like the connection but it was kind of like, oh, there's something similar there about like narratives and like how to tell a story and why something's good, you know? And then you start studying that stuff. I mean, Connor, you and I used to love that stuff in high school like music and all that stuff we did and like and just like nailing that down or or even Zack you and I used to like break apart was this was an age well, you and I used to like break down Louie ck bits about like, why I actually voted Louise I actually like to make so

Connor Heine  22:50  
much sense now.

Brody Miller  22:54  
Louie ck to like a group of friends the other day, and I had to do like a nine minute preface of like, Guys Guys, listen, like I'm not supporting him. But I'm like, it's still a really smart bit. All right, yeah.

Zach McHale  23:03  
Cool. When I saw him, junior senior year in high school alive, he was fantastic.

Brody Miller  23:07  
Speaking of I also have like an Annie Hall poster that I like need to throw away cuz I don't want to support it on either.

Zach McHale  23:13  
But, uh, sounds like you're pretty controversial guy.

Brody Miller  23:15  
I know what's up with that? I would argue I think just a lot of geniuses are messed up people. But that's not i'm not supporting. I'm just saying, um, but yeah. So I think I started like learning, you know, as I went, just like, why I liked these things. And then it kind of was like, oh, and that's actually like, not as different as you'd think from like, if you do this part of the job, right of like, how to find a feature and how to, you know, break it down. And like, the stuff I love about writing isn't even like, people always think writings about like, words and like, you know, diction choices and like, flour. No, it's actually more about like structure and narrative. And like, where you begin where you end, you know, or like, how you break it down. Do you want to save this bit for later is like a surprise later? Do you want to open with that, you know, like, it's that stuff that is like, I could sit and nerd out with somebody over for hours and like, and that is also the same things I love about a movie or it's like, shoot, I'm watching Queen's gambit right now. And I'm just like, floored by the writing on their show. And like the nuance involved in that show. It

Connor Heine  24:11  
sounds It sounds like you didn't know about that part of you know, sports writing before you, you know, start doing it yourself.

Unknown Speaker  24:19  
It's true.

Connor Heine  24:20  
I really didn't even know that even those that's, you know, structuring that analyzing that type of stuff. You know, like you said, you always know you like but you did I guess you didn't realize there was a facet for that in

Brody Miller  24:31  
your dashboard. Yeah. Or like, you know, I would always read a sports illustrated cover story, you know, an ESPN The Magazine Cover Story, but it was, but it was like I would read it the same way. By the way. Most of us read it in the right way I read it like I would read the Joe Flacco is throwing right now for some reason on the TV. So that's what I'm about to say but I also don't want to read a Joe Flacco cover story so not gonna use any say, let's use him screw it'll be fun. Yeah, like I don't want to I want I'm reading the Joe Flacco cover story because I want to I wanted to learn about Joe Flacco and then like somewhere along the line, it became more about like, yeah, like you're saying, like, I fell in love with that part of it the structure and those kind of things. And I think, yeah, I don't even know where I'm going with this, I guess, but it's just kind of, I don't

Connor Heine  25:10  
know, I think we're hitting, I think we're hitting a really, a really good point. And highlighting it pretty good just because I feel like you could do all the preparation you want into a career. But you don't actually, I mean, this might sound odd, but you don't actually know if you're gonna like it until you start doing it. And then you don't even know if you're gonna, if you don't even know, you're gonna like it until like, you've actually grinded at it. You know what I mean, for me, when I went into music, I went to us for recording music. And I realized I didn't like, I mean, I like recording music, but I was way more interested in doing like live sound, which is like a big pivot in the music industry to go from being a recording engineer or live sound engineer. Yeah. And it was because I didn't do the research. Like I knew a lot about those types of fields. But it wasn't until I did it that I realized, Oh, I like this way more.

Unknown Speaker  26:06  
And I want to follow up on that. Yeah.

Brody Miller  26:09  
I guess like what I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. But like, so why do you like what do you think? Like, do you think you figure it out? While you were figuring that out something along the way about why you even liked? Either job? You know what I mean? Like, was it that was that you figuring out why you liked these things? And then once you figured out why you were able to get closer to what you preferred, or am I completely off base there?

Connor Heine  26:29  
No, no, very accurate. I mean, it was it was a lot of things it was I was once I was doing it, I could see, you know, the trajectory of pursuing a career in just that one avenue of the music industry of just doing like recorded music, I could see, you know, maybe that doesn't have as many opportunities as I wanted, right?

Zach McHale  26:50  
There are only a few in Philadelphia area.

Connor Heine  26:53  
Yeah. And I mean, recording studios, yes. And you can you can be you can be you know, you don't have to be just a, you know, a certain location to do recording music, you can be a producer and an engineer that works out at different studios all over the country. But those, you know, it takes, it takes a while to make those connections and do all that stuff. Whereas I saw in live music, there was a need in Philadelphia, Philadelphia is very big, you know, live music scene, and I knew a lot of people there in the scene. So it was just a lot of reasons. But mainly, you know, the trajectory that I saw of each, like career choice. But what what I wanted to say was, those decisions can be I mean, it sounds like for me, and you those decisions were huge decisions, they were still in the same, you know, industry, but those can those can be those are big decisions, you know, after gaining experience in a field and deciding I don't like what I'm doing that's a that's a hard thing to come to terms with.

Zach McHale  27:53  
Well, I mean, I definitely made a switch entirely. Mine was definitely more of a bigger switch, right, then a finance major school and then switching up to start working into entertainment and right in the production side. Whereas like, yeah, you guys have kind of gone on with that scary,

Connor Heine  28:07  
that's a scary, scary or shift. Then

Zach McHale  28:12  
it is it is, but I was saying it's just a different vein, the same thing of making a choice. And then all of a sudden, it's just like, you're sitting there and you're just like, well, what are the avenues this leads to and you're kind of looking at all of them like you guys did, and you're breaking it down, and then all of a sudden, I'm looking down all those avenues and just like, well, I don't like any of these. Right? You know,

Brody Miller  28:29  
I was a little scarier Zach because he was like, finishing college.

Zach McHale  28:34  
Yeah, he was like, I just started my colored glasses here, midway through college and was like, holy shit, and it was just like, all right, like, all of a sudden, it was just like, Alright, what do I what are the things that I like? And I start figuring it out and just like, Alright, well, I like comedy. Like, I like entertainment. I think production sounds interesting. You know, us, we kind of

Connor Heine  28:52  
you kind of sound a little bit like, I just keep going, you

Zach McHale  28:57  
know what, like, Woody Allen know,

Connor Heine  29:00  
you kind of sound like Louie ck, no,

Zach McHale  29:02  
keep going. But so then it was just like, Alright, it was like I had to take take a step all the way back and it was just like, Alright, what are the things that I like? And I was like, Alright, I could narrow it down to those. So while I'm applying to other finance jobs, this is, you know, spring, junior year, and then it's just Okay, I'll, I'll just shout out a million darts must have applied to friggin like 80 places or something, and hit with a guy who's, you know, guy manage comedians. And I was like, once I was working for him, I was like, Alright, so now I'm behind everyone who's trying to do this. So it's like, I probably have to take a semester off of school and then do another internship and that just kind of bumped everything back. But it was something where you wait, and you're like, yeah, I can. I'm fine with taking taking a semester off of school and just to set back for this because you realize it's really doesn't matter when you finish up. You just, you finish when you finish. And I mean, bro to you. you'd taken a semester off of school to I mean, did that, you know, were you worried about falling behind it all at the time.

Brody Miller  30:02  
First of all, I want to preface by saying your everything you did, though, like takes a level of like, it's obscene irrational confidence that only you have to even like have the confidence to be like three years in, I'm just switching and just like, do it because that's not normal. Like, most people will just be like, well, I'm in this far I'm gonna do it. But so credits you for that.

Connor Heine  30:21  
No, but what what is normal? The point I did want to hammer home is that Yeah, no matter what career path or you know what decision you're those, those things happen to everybody, there comes a point after gaining experience in a certain field where you where you pivot, and I guess if you don't pivot, that that's kind of a bad thing. I think, you know, you get stuck in your ways. So those pivots are good.

Brody Miller  30:45  
Good. I firmly agree with that good way to pivot see big pivot guys that's

Connor Heine  30:50  
in the post pivot and around the post.

Brody Miller  30:54  
Such an inside? Oh, but no, I mean, answer your questions that coming. I don't know. Like, I don't want to, like, you know, cuz sometimes we're always searching for meetings and things and they don't always have it. You know, like, when I took that semester off, and obviously, you guys know is more for personal reasons, and like job and take care of my mom and stuff like that. But it was like, I think, you know, by time, I will say I think my freshman year of college before that happened. I was just kind of like, going with the motions and just which is what you should be doing your freshman year. some extent you should be just like going out and having fun and not worrying too much. But yeah, I think I was just kind of like, Did you not?

Connor Heine  31:26  
Did you say not wearing too much? worrying too much.

Brody Miller  31:30  
So I was pretty good that year, I was pretty fit freshman year. So the clothes were less I am willing to say that. But yeah, no, it was like so i think i that semester, I went home and I will say yeah, I think you know, by that when you when you when you have that happen, and like, I don't wanna make it sound too dramatic. Like I always knew I was gonna be okay. But it was like, when that happens. And like, I had this moment of being like, I don't wanna insult her, like anyone but like, I just fear of just like, it's, there's a reason By the way, the closest school I applied was six hours away, not because I didn't love our town, I just like had this thing of like, not wanting to stay in a hometown and like, do other things, you know, and like, right. And I that was just a me thing. But and you know, a lot of people. Yeah, and I think it was, it was just a fear for me of like, when that semester came home, and it was like, I literally felt like I was having a Peterbilt a George Bailey like, It's a Wonderful Life moment of like, you know, like, you thought you were finally leaving, and then life keeps pulling you back. And you're stuck in this town. Right? And like, again, literally Medford is the coolest like it's a great town. Great place to raise a fan. But um,

Connor Heine  32:30  
yeah, and I think by the time they School District,

Zach McHale  32:32  
oh, that's gonna that's gonna kill all our moms. And, yeah, that's our whole lot. I love it.

Unknown Speaker  32:39  
I know it.

Brody Miller  32:41  
But yeah, no. So by the time like, I left that, you know, came with that semester was finished, I was going back to you, it was like a, I don't want like, I saw what could happen. And like, I don't want that to happen. So I definitely went a little more focused. And actually, the more I talked about it, the more I guess that is true. They're like, by the time like, I got back, I actually like, it just you have to sacrifice some things, but I probably like, was a little less fun. I mean, not a lot of fun. But like, I went from hanging with like my roommates, like my really good friends that are still my good friends to this day. But like, I hung out with those guys less, you know, and I actually like started like, just hanging out the student paper till like 11 at night, even when I wasn't working, you know, and like, one learning what to just like being around people who like could push me and I could learn from and it wasn't like intentional. I just liked being around them. But it's true that like the way I kind of just like lived was just a smidge different. It was a little more focused and a little more like, hey, I want to be around people to help me get where I want to go. And like so obviously, like I said, I still hung with those friends. I still live with them all of college, but it's just like, there was a genuine change when I came back from that.

Zach McHale  33:42  
Yeah, and and I mean, there's definitely something to be said for putting yourself out there and forcing yourself to be around people who are, I mean, even not like minded but at least interested in pursuing the same kind of things you do. And you're gonna feel pressure from those people to, to kind of keep ascending with them and to keep learning from them. If you're around people who are hungry and want to keep learning and you know, they're all interested in writing in the different ways of putting a story, all of a sudden, you're going to start seeing things that you didn't really see and it's just gonna make you more fired up about it.

Brody Miller  34:14  
And my roommates were all potheads, so they were hungry in a very different way. You know who's to say Which is better? Who is to say,

Zach McHale  34:22  
sometimes the Doritos would be better?

Brody Miller  34:24  
Yeah, no, they're totally times I isolate the Doritos though. So yeah.

Zach McHale  34:30  
I want to go back to to a couple of things. I guess. First I want to start with is obviously you knew sports very early on was, you know, in a broad sense, somewhere you wanted to look into reporting.

Connor Heine  34:43  
What was it about Star right? You mentioned star Minnie Munchkins? He was a star many Munchkins, right?

Brody Miller  34:51  
I wasn't any Munchkin star. Not really. But man, man. Yeah, Medford baseball. What? What a dynasty.

Unknown Speaker  34:57  
Was it good.

Connor Heine  34:58  
I've seen your name up on Some some signs on the back of some

Zach McHale  35:02  
yeah Wanted Dead or Alive.

Brody Miller  35:06  
I was on those back to back district title team.

Connor Heine  35:09  
mailers

Brody Miller  35:11  
outfielder wasn't that impressed I

Connor Heine  35:13  
was about to mention in the same breath that some some huge athletes man.

Brody Miller  35:19  
By the way, for listeners we got Steve Astor a a former Notre Dame basketball star Jared zomer LSU and Tulane star who now is doing fascinating stuff with the Seattle Mariners on his Kona coaching staff. Who else was on that team that like went on? Yeah, Jared Archer fascinating stuff.

Zach McHale  35:37  
Elena international basketball.

Brody Miller  35:38  
Yeah. Jeremy actually haven't checked up with him. And

Connor Heine  35:41  
he's Jeremy. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  35:42  
yeah. Oh, geez.

Brody Miller  35:43  
I didn't know that. And I think there's someone else that like went on. No, no, but anyway, um, you know, Macklin Kaiser. What an athlete. Oh, no. Sorry. But exactly what I was saying. What

Zach McHale  35:56  
was it about sports that that popped out to you? I mean, I you know, in general sense if like, you're just semi athletic guy, like, you're gonna be like, oh, sports, like, I'm interested in this. But what was it about, you know, sports and reporting that really spoke to you as a kid, especially, I think most kids be like, oh, like, I like sports, or like, I like Legos or whatever. But you were like, I like sports. But like, times 1000? Yeah.

Brody Miller  36:22  
Well, I think that actually very much goes back to that same thing of both things I've said where it's like, one, I think the reasons you start liking something are very different from I keep liking them, but to you know, like, it's kind of the not understanding the why part until like, later. And I think now when I go back, I think like, the things I fell in love with wasn't like, I didn't fall in love with literally watching a football game, which I also love and to the state stuff more than anything, but it wasn't literally that it wasn't literally watching a basketball game, which again, also that but it was more like, watching the America's game documentary and like learning the story of that season, which is what I mean by like, I did not know, that's why I loved it at the time. I actually genuinely didn't, but like, or, like, you know, Harry Brown, our good friend that I like, you know, just like nerding out over like careers of people and like comparing careers and like, in real, like, comparing careers is actually just like discussing narratives. And like, I don't even like know that, you know, like, it's not. And by the way, no dirt, no one should look at it that nerdily. But like, it actually is what it is. And like, I think I've realized now that's the stuff I fell in love with her like fell in love with like the story of Josh Hamilton, you know, going from like a drug addict, former first overall pick to a superstar, you know, like, and it's like, hmm, now, I'm only noticing this To be fair, 15 years later, but like, I think that is actually what I fell in love with about sports. I didn't. I was never like, psyched to talk with anyone about like, you know, the set play by the receiver, you know, and I think that's just kind of something you realized later. And also Yeah, I think, I think I just loved that part of it. And I got really into it. And then I followed, followed that path and was like, I want to, you know, I want to do sports reporting all that kind of stuff. And then yeah, I think much later, I realized, like, Oh, yeah, I don't actually care about how this guy shot this game. I just don't like I actually just, that's, I don't want to have to write that, you know, like, you can get that on your phone. You could literally just Google go to the ESPN app and see how someone played, you know, like, I learned more about like, wow, what happened in that game like that? That center like, yelled at the point guard and the point guard like fell apart? That's interesting, you know, so I think that's kind of it's reiterating a point I've made but I think that is it.

Connor Heine  38:25  
How much do you think growing up with what's probably like the heyday of like, sports center like anchors, play? I mean, cuz like, you know, Scotland POW. Every you know, all those guys were like, really

Brody Miller  38:42  
elaborate these the second one name like what a good for Neil. You know, big meal, every meal ever has ever been listed second, so I'm like psyched for him.

Connor Heine  38:51  
Whenever I watch SportsCenter, I feel like I always was looking for a URL up there. No, yeah, you're right.

Brody Miller  38:56  
I think that's actually a really good point.

Connor Heine  38:58  
It was like the heyday the late 90s, early 2000s. It was

Brody Miller  39:03  
it was a peak and like, subsequent end of the peak, and we didn't even know it when it was happening. Right? We thought this would go on forever. Yeah, it's, it's actually fascinating to see how that's changed. But no, I actually think that's an incredible watching sports and it was my favorite thing in the world watching the Scott Van Pelt or Stuart Scott, you know, or any of these guys, that was, I think that's a huge part. Because one, like, watching sports in that way was more accessible than it ever had been, and ever will be, you know, and I think now it's different. And I'm not saying it's worse or better. I don't love it. But now because of what I'm saying, by the way that like, now you can get results any day on your phone and you just literally don't need Sports Center, for example, that reason for that reason, like sports center, and ESPN has had to become more like talking heads debating stuff for 24 hours, which is smart. That's literally the only way to cover time now. So by the way, not criticizing it, but I wonder Yeah, if like I came up now, How different would that be when I still like level the same parts of it?

Connor Heine  39:58  
I mean, we're all you know, we're all sports. here but I think it was a lot of people's morning routine back then, you know, we were in middle school, I would wake up before catching the bus and turn it was either Sports Center or Saved by the Bell. You know what I mean? You know, probably both, but which is why I

Brody Miller  40:13  
think I did love me some say by the bell before.

Connor Heine  40:15  
Yeah. Which is why I like the president their fan club now, I think, you know, which is another story, but um, fun. I want to follow up that But seriously, it was Sports Center. I've watched a lot of sports center. So I think that definitely probably played a part.

Brody Miller  40:29  
And I certainly think so or even like, remember bat like when we were kids, like, just like on ESPN. There would be like a rerun of the Doug Flutie came, you know, or something like that. It's like that stuff was just like normal that you'd watch. It would be like a football life would be on it would just be like the story of john Elway. And it's like, now like First off, I wouldn't watch that if it was on now. Which that might tell more about just getting older. I don't know. Like I genuinely don't know the answer to that. I hate john Elway. Yeah, God hate him hate his gym work really trashed a TiVo. But yeah, like I just don't think like that's even an avenue anymore. Like I don't know if that's more about what how viewers have changed or if that's more about like, proper changes but like Yeah, when I was coming up with I would watch these awesome like old games or old documentaries and that that stuff sucked me in and now like that would never be on my way if it was on I don't think I'd watch it right

Connor Heine  41:15  
click Sports Center also was like more of like, it's almost like a comedy show. At times.

Zach McHale  41:20  
Like they're always cracking jokes that either engine cringe and I think cringy

Connor Heine  41:28  
maybe now

Unknown Speaker  41:29  
You're crazy. Oh, yeah.

Connor Heine  41:30  
I mean, those This is Sports Center. commercials. Where stare Oh,

Unknown Speaker  41:34  
God, I love

Unknown Speaker  41:38  
even to this day, you know, we're forgetting

Brody Miller  41:41  
we literally created on our show in high school. That was me ripping off the Sports Center.

Connor Heine  41:47  
Yeah, yeah. All three of us had a a skit show in high school that would play

Zach McHale  41:52  
like the morning play on the morning show.

Connor Heine  41:55  
And it was the tagline was this is Johnny TV, which is the same tagline is yes. Even so like

Brody Miller  42:01  
for at least the first season we did it. We literally even stoled the plotlines from SportsCenter literally permeated our high school TV show. No like that's not it's not permeating anything anymore. Unless we want to do some terrible Shaunie TV first take no

Zach McHale  42:19  
yeah, which in which in the show notes or on social I'm gonna post a couple of those little clips. We've got some I'll post a little montage of some What a bummer

Brody Miller  42:26  
was rewatching those is you two are genuinely funny in them, and I'm just cringe worthy in them. So it's it's brutal for me to go back.

Zach McHale  42:33  
Yeah, you're gonna think that when you're looking at yourself, though, now, you got some you got some good ones. Especially

Brody Miller  42:39  
not that's not me fishing for a column, but I'm just not that funny. Okay,

Connor Heine  42:42  
what was the what was the one we did? That was all like, just one off shots of us at the desk was Oh, it was we're trying to make a catchphrase. Oh, it was catchphrase. Yeah, this is good one. You're pretty good at that one.

Brody Miller  42:56  
That one was okay. Yeah. Yeah. Actually blanket. But yeah,

Zach McHale  43:02  
I just a lot of them because I was checking to see if we actually could put it on social before I said that. And I was like, yeah, there are enough. There are enough that I still think they're kind of Yeah, so.

Brody Miller  43:11  
But I will say actually, and this is like I actually like talked about this a decent amount. I think like I told my girlfriend at the sailor day, I think like, I will say the one that I always remembered the most fondly. And it's kind of funny. Looking back on now was the Smoothie King one and that one I think I enjoyed the most looking back on because it was like, me and Connor. Exactly. Unfortunately,

Zach McHale  43:30  
it sounds like he just it sounds like just because I wasn't in the picture.

Brody Miller  43:34  
You weren't in a lot of the first year

Connor Heine  43:36  
so like go to the bathroom or something. This is your home

Zach McHale  43:38  
leave contact. Yeah,

Brody Miller  43:40  
I think Yeah, but it's funny. I look back on that one the most fondly. And it's actually can I think like, it was like, for lack of better I mean, obviously Connor wrote it through but it was like I was the writer and Connor was the performer and that way and like, I mean, Connor came up with most the funniest ones, but it was like, we were like workshop to produce. Yeah.

Connor Heine  43:59  
I don't know if it was your me. I don't even think it was you. I think that was definitely it was it was like, it was like the biggest hit like everyone laughed at my homeroom at that line. I was like that hit that switch.

Brody Miller  44:12  
And like things will land it's a numbers game. But yeah, I really do look back on that cuz I think it was like, I felt like it was like, I was helping construct this. And I know it was like it's the most juvenile stupid bit ever that joke but it was like I actually in the moment, I felt like that. And that's why I went back the most fondly on it, which was funny looking at what I do now.

Connor Heine  44:28  
Do you remember when we started asking who was the teacher? That's Mr. Case. You Mr. Casey. Yeah. When we started asking him for help with like, trying to more like have like a more refined like writing process and like, just hitting marks in like a short bit because he was he's a stand up comic and like, whether he didn't want to like give us the secrets or like he just didn't have them himself. Like, we would ask him for help and we would just be like,

Zach McHale  44:56  
what the hell I noticed he dropped the ball and we had Khan's dress up as the Greenland To frickin mask on across his face. And yeah, that sketch suck though. But Brody, it's funny you say how you enjoyed doing the structure of it and being the writer with it. Because, I mean, you remember when I first started doing stand up, and it's a terrifying thing to start to start jumping in there and be like, I'm funny, like, let me get up on stage for five minutes and talk at you in the crowd. And I was like, I would send you my my stand up. Not only just the videos, which I would send out to some friends just for further feedback, but I would actually send you what I had written up and was just like, Hey, is this funny? Like, is there any way you can rearrange this and help me out?

Brody Miller  45:40  
Yeah, by the way, that's my favorite thing to do. So please never stop doing that. But can I just enjoy that? But no, yeah, I think. I mean, I think that's like, we all it's important to kind of sometimes know what you're good at, like, I think I'm good at like, figuring out rhythms of things. And like, you know, like writing a sports story isn't that different in that sense than writing a stand up bit where like, the rhythm of that joke, I would like matters just as much as like the rhythm of like, hitting your nut graph in a story, which, sorry, I don't know enough graph is but like, yeah, so it's like, you know, the nut graph, nut graph is the, let's do this. Now graph is the line in like a news story where like, you're reading three, you know, say, it's like, you're reading a few graphs, and then the nut graph is the one that like, really tells you what the story is, you know, so it's like phrases. Like, it's like, yeah, like Donald Trump.

Connor Heine  46:27  
Made it know, like,

Zach McHale  46:29  
which, which one of your professors just like, you gotta get the big nut in there. Make sure you guys are really, really never thought of it that way was just a tenured professor who's there to like, you can't say that. And he's like, Is it just to be fair, I

Brody Miller  46:42  
think that line probably predates that being a term for sex. Okay,

Unknown Speaker  46:45  
so that was

Brody Miller  46:47  
to get the nut and that's the same reason somebody eventually later made

Zach McHale  46:50  
I guess, I guess I'm pretty sure squirrels were saying that before they knew about

Brody Miller  46:54  
Yeah, yeah, I think it's the squirrel thing.

Connor Heine  46:57  
That's true. Okay. I guess I guess not as a new sexual term in relative to squirrel. Not. Still. That's true. That's how I've seen it.

Unknown Speaker  47:09  
You How often do

Zach McHale  47:10  
you know that you even seen it your life? No, he searches it.

Connor Heine  47:14  
We live in the woods. Okay. And

Brody Miller  47:16  
you do live on the bonbons? open your door and see a squirrel Falcon? Yeah. I don't know who's listening this I shouldn't curse.

Connor Heine  47:25  
Or searching for after school programs.

Unknown Speaker  47:27  
So sorry.

Connor Heine  47:28  
Yeah. Sorry, never sending their kid here now.

Zach McHale  47:32  
But yeah, in terms of knowing your strengths, too, what was one strength that always stuck out to me and my parents too, is you've always been really good with talking to adults. Even when we were kids, like even our elementary school teachers, like you stayed close with them and would visit them when you're around. You're always just able to talk up to their level. What do you think it was that that allowed you to do that? Was it moving around? to a few places as a kid and having to be talkative to to make friends? Or?

Connor Heine  48:01  
I have a question because people say the same thing about me. Did you hang out with your parents friends a lot, because that's what it was for me. Like my

Brody Miller  48:09  
parents had many friends. But but not Yeah, a little bit. But yeah, knows that. I mean, it was mainly like, yeah, our friend's parents or like, teachers was a big one. Like, I still keep in touch with my fourth grade teacher, Mr. Levin, shout out. But uh, yeah, like, I? That's a great question. I don't know the answer to the why. But I think maybe it really did have to do with moving around. Or maybe like,

Unknown Speaker  48:30  
I don't know, I think part of it was like, was

Zach McHale  48:34  
it was it maybe when you were at your brother's games? And you're in the stands, and you're just you're like, are you talking with the adults? Because for me, I was kid brother. So I could just sit there, they'd be like, how are you? Zack and I could be smiling. I said that, like, that was my that was the role I kind of wrote for myself. Yeah, so it's totally different,

Brody Miller  48:49  
I guess cuz, like, I don't know where it comes from. But I think like, you know, strength I have, to some extent is just like, knowing how to read people not even necessarily like the deeper ways i don't think i mean that at all. But like, just knowing how to, like, read the tone to have with somebody which I think is like, where self awareness I like to believe that's a strength of mine. Everyone wants to believe that but like, you know, just like knowing like, how to talk to somebody or knowing like, what tone to have with somebody and knowing like, you know, like, this joke won't land with them. And this you know, or like, this person wants to talk about this and this person wants me to leave them alone. I think that's something like always kind of good at now. Why I like talking to parents. That's a weird that's probably

Unknown Speaker  49:27  
Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  49:29  
I mean, that's weird. It's weird. Like it

Zach McHale  49:31  
would be like Brody, are you coming in the basement or what?

Connor Heine  49:34  
Dude that same thing with me like my friends would invite me over their houses and like, I'd be talking to the parents and then like 20 minutes would go by and be like, shit like

Brody Miller  49:44  
I think what you and I have in common though is like we're kind of old souls both of us yeah, we both like love old things and that will people didn't mean like that but like we love old things and like we love like learning about history. I think that's like we both very much have in common you probably more with music, but maybe maybe a little more with like, I don't know movies. Even though you do too, but yeah, like I think that's there's probably something there that like, maybe never I don't think you or I even even though we had tons of friends our age but like I don't think you were I ever felt as like I actually like I will flat out say this with our entire friend group growing up like I just never felt like that comfortable talking to people my own age like I feel like my jokes. And yeah, I feel like my jokes weren't as funny with them and made like, maybe that was a false sense of maturity or something but no, like, it was just like all these different reasons. Like I always knew what

Connor Heine  50:29  
to say when I was talking to older people. What exactly what people our age, I didn't know, I didn't know what to say,

Brody Miller  50:34  
which also, I think is part of why I'm more comfortable my own skin now because like we are adults, you know, and like, right? Yeah, I don't know what that comes from. But it is interesting.

Zach McHale  50:42  
That's so funny. I'm just such a polar opposite. I've always even just like a year or two above. Growing up. I was I was always like, oh, they're older, like and since I pretty much played that kid brother. Like they're older people to me. Whereas I've always felt most comfortable either with people my age or younger. To really level with them. So maybe I'm just incredibly immature.

Connor Heine  51:04  
Yeah. Sounds like it

Unknown Speaker  51:06  
sounds like that's

Connor Heine  51:08  
very out of out of question. I thought it was a we we keep talking about how is always sports always sports was it? Was it at a time? Not sports, you know? Cuz Yeah. Talk about how much you like movies and entertainment in general. Like, we keep saying like, it was always sports. It was always sports. Was it ever not sports?

Brody Miller  51:27  
That's a great question. And I also want to like sakes, we're talking so much about the like, the pivot moment stuff. And like, first off, I did pivot and everything you're saying about That is so true for listeners and stuff like that, but mine wasn't as serious as your guys just because I was like, in college, literally when you are supposed to like figure that pivot out. Like it was a pretty gradual one. But still, ya know, I think I think there's moments now where I still wonder if like, that's really what I want to stay and you know, like, the reason I think, okay, I'll answer your question first by saying like, Yes, I think there was times I wrote a lot of like reviews and like TV reviews for specific specifically for a student paper and I edit for a semester I edited the basically the entertainment section of the paper just to like, partially just for fun and to to like just try to learn other stuff. And I love that stuff. I mean, I would love to be a film critic, or Honestly, I think now like if you ask me right now Brody, like what job would you have? right straight up, I'd be like, I think I'd want to be like a New Yorker or near Times Magazine, or one of those guys like a celebrity profiler. Writing profiles is my favorite thing in the world. And like, figuring out what people's how people tick and all that stuff, and that is the dream job. The problem is those jobs just literally don't exist. There's like six of them total. And you never leave them if you have them. But it also I don't know how I get there from

Unknown Speaker  52:36  
outcome. Like, we gotta kill one of them YouTube star or something?

Brody Miller  52:40  
Maybe, but yeah, so I think the answer your question, of course, yes. But yeah, and then then you get to like, cuz I think the part we like missing sometimes with these conversations is like, there's also the practicality which actually Connor, your thing was, I love what your explanation of why you change because practicality did factor in a lot. And like, actually practical factor into me not wanting to be a columnist, because like to be a columnist, you actually have to, like earn that job. Like, unless you just want to be a blogger or something, you know, and it's like practical to be a reporter and work your way up. And you're like you said, and like, practicality. Like, I actually think I realized young that like, this is the kind of writing I like to do, like we talked about earlier. But more importantly, I think sports is actually not the best field not because I love writing about sports is very noble. But there's more avenues to being able to write those kind of profiles, those kind of features, like sports that's built in the narratives are built in and sports is win lose, it is like all that stuff. So like, that's literally part of my weekly job is to write features, you know, while like, if you are a news reporter, or even a TV critic like that isn't necessarily that often of a thing you get to do. It just isn't like you have to write the news or you have to review stuff. And it's not that often you're gonna get an interview with the director or something, you know. So I think practicality did factor and like sports is the best Avenue or most likely avenue to do the kind of writing I want to do. So it is I think that it did factor in that it's not it's not a fun answer, but I think it's true,

Connor Heine  54:02  
right? Do you ever thought about getting a dog and naming it Marley and writing a column about Marley? Have you ever thought about that?

Brody Miller  54:11  
Well, I thought about it, but then I realized when I tried to do that earlier with Old Yeller, like that was a big bummer. Who that Oh, yeah, like so I realized don't live life on movies with dogs because it's not a good ending. Yeah. I wanted a better laugh on that joke. I thought it means joking about killing my dog was hilarious and it didn't land which again, is why it wasn't the funny one on the show. Only because he Oh, my dog.

Unknown Speaker  54:36  
Jesus.

Brody Miller  54:39  
Don't make that joke.

Connor Heine  54:40  
The Old Yeller reference was right on that. I enjoyed that. Um, here's a question.

Zach McHale  54:49  
Here's a riddle for you. Yeah, what else? two legs?

Connor Heine  54:55  
One? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  54:58  
No, I really have Got

Unknown Speaker  55:01  
a read on you let me know the answer.

Connor Heine  55:02  
No, I thought of a question because you know, you're talking about, you know, writing a column first, you know, more of a writing as a actual reporter. And I don't want to say columnist, reporters are columnist reporters, I don't even know,

Brody Miller  55:17  
the good one is 100%

Connor Heine  55:18  
Okay, um, but even just writing about sports in general. I mean, obviously, sports is a human thing. So you get, you know, the complexity complexities of, you know, humans being involved. Is that what you like to write about? Do you like, you know, it sounds like it is it sounds like you like finding out what makes someone tick? And, you know, that kind of stuff.

Brody Miller  55:41  
Oh, 100% Yeah, I mean, that is exclusively what I like, I like other stuff, too. Like, there's all kinds of features you can make. But yeah, 100% I think it almost like limits me sometimes to like, I don't I bet 80% of the time, just want to write profiles and stuff like that. First off, there's only so much you can write. Or if you keep writing I'm like, they're not that interesting. Because like, Alright, like, do you really need to profile the punter? Like, you know, but, but yeah, I mean, that's 100% what I like and I think, you know, I, I think there's probably a lot of reasons for that, you know, I think there's probably stuff with like, you know, like, shoot, I mean, Sopranos one of my favorite shows ever. And I love that show. Because, like, has a lot. It's very big on psychology, right? And like, I literally, I think I was never like close to doing it. But if I would have done another job, I would have 100% pursuit psychology, like, I firmly believe that that's the stuff I love about just like, why someone is the way they are and how they got to that place, or how they changed and all these things and like what factors led to that change? You know, like, that is the most fascinating thing in the world to me. I almost wished I was still sitting here. This but I

Zach McHale  56:39  
am actually no, this is really interesting.

Connor Heine  56:41  
Zach just decided to pee right on my patio. Yeah. All over the computer is a mess. what you were saying was way too interesting for him to get up.

Zach McHale  56:49  
Yeah. Winner still, I'm just trying. But like, seriously, like,

Brody Miller  56:57  
my favorite thing to do was like, how are you and we had like, drive around? That was always like, how he's ride places and how he and I would just like our good friend from high school was just like to like, analyze our friends. And it was our favorite thing in the world. There's no like,

Connor Heine  57:09  
like, awful.

Brody Miller  57:11  
Okay, it wasn't like mean, okay, actually, it was probably a little mean spirited, but. But for me, it was just like, you know, like, why is this person acting this way? What's their motivation? And I'm like, I don't even

Connor Heine  57:21  
know why does that always eat his peaches before he eats is that I'll be honest,

Brody Miller  57:25  
if we're being all straight shooters here, Zach was our topic like 50%. Zach and heist interesting case biggest nigma not even a nygma. But just like infuriating and fascinating person.

Zach McHale  57:37  
better write better read a story for me in the New York

Brody Miller  57:39  
singles act verse. Verse relationships. Were just two polar different people. And that was always a big topic. But uh, sorry. Yeah, no. So I think I think it's just something I've always been into even just figuring out why our friends are the way they are. Like that. And so I think there is something to just like, does I like people and like, I like figuring out why people are the way are

Connor Heine  58:00  
does it seem like there's more of a shift into that type of, like reporting within sports itself? Because it seems like as more of you know, mental health becomes less taboo. It seems like we are getting more of these stories of what these athletes are going through on, you know, a psychological basis, whereas maybe, you know, generations beforehand, we weren't, it seems like we're getting to know these athletes on a personal level, way more before. Does that shift actually happening? Do you think

Brody Miller  58:31  
there's two very good reasons and one's bad ones for a bad reason? Probably in one's for a good one. One, I think it actually does go back to what we're talking about.

Unknown Speaker  58:39  
Man bias.

Unknown Speaker  58:40  
What kind? No, no,

Unknown Speaker  58:43  
get out of here. Oh,

Brody Miller  58:44  
yeah. But yeah, like I think one I think we're talking about earlier about how sports has just changed, like coverage has changed and you can get results anywhere so like the market really, no one needs someone who can tell you what the score was you need somebody who actually you know, if you want to make it at least in this field, like you need to be able to tell those kind of stories but but two I think the other ones probably not a healthy reason which is that like I think I think a lot of people who enter journalism now entered for very different than why they didn't like the 40s think in like the 40s or even the 70s you entered it to like out of like a public good right? Or like I want to cover this and like this is what needs to be covered and and i think somewhere along the line as these things became our public or movies like all the President's Men came out or like you read a few too many gay Tilly stories, you know, or like, you know, write Thompson stories. I think like a whole generation of kids came into journalism, not to do the jobs that are important, which by the way, a lot of people come in to do the jobs that are important, but not as not enough like the hero

Unknown Speaker  59:40  
work. Are you talking about? Like Yeah,

Brody Miller  59:42  
like the actual like covering City Hall, you know, and like that's what really journalism is for, like holding officials accountable, accountable. And I think like, so many people are so good at those jobs. But I think the percentage has changed because like these kids now go to journalism school for like, just to be a feature writer like just to be like us. All the President's Men are some shit, you know, and like, and I think that's actually unhealthy. Because now everyone comes out of college, if we're being honest, people come into college want to have a job I have. And I'm very, very fortunate to have that I want to like make that clear, I'm so lucky to have a job I have. But too many people want to just be feature writers or just want to do like all this other stuff. And that's actually a bad thing. Because then like you, they don't want to do the parts that are important.

Connor Heine  1:00:24  
What, maybe they are acquiring the skills to exert that good of a you know, because they're not doing the groundwork. It's funny that

Unknown Speaker  1:00:30  
nails it. Yeah,

Connor Heine  1:00:31  
it's funny that you say that because I'm my agent, and I don't want to mess up the store too much. I won't like say any names or anything but my aunt was a writing for a huge publication in LA. I won't say the name because I don't I don't know the actual facts of it. But she so she was just doing like, I don't know if it was whether she was doing something very straightforward, you know, grinding. And one day she was driving in LA and she hears all these sirens and helicopters. And she thought, I'm a reporter, I'm gonna go see even though it had nothing to do with what she read it she got, I'm gonna go see what's going on. And she she shows up to this scene of bullets flying everywhere, and she gets out of her car and she immediately has to hit the ground because there's a fire going right by her head. Turns out, it was a huge bank robbery in LA, the one that he is based off of about, and she wrote, she was the only reporter there for her publications. She wrote about it and did this whole profile on all these guys. And like won a Pulitzer Prize for it. You know what I mean? Like, we've been friends a long time, but I never did. I only found this out at my brother's wedding, which was like a few years ago. She told me this at like, a time and you know, I see she lives in LA. So I see her every once a while, but it's not like I never see her. She never told me this story. And she just like half she just like oh, yeah, and then story. And I was like, that's the craziest story I've ever heard. Robert De Niro.

Unknown Speaker  1:02:01  
Kilmer there.

Connor Heine  1:02:02  
Yeah, exactly. But I mean, like, so she didn't go to school to write that story. She just happened to be at the right place at the right time and was a reporter. And that's why, you know, she got lucky. But yeah, I think the point that you're making, you know, she didn't like she wasn't setting out to write that story. Whereas I feel like Like you said, a lot of kids want to be the hero. Now. They don't want to do you know, the grind work? 100% accurate? I

Brody Miller  1:02:29  
think you'd like absolutely nailed it. And yeah, like, I'll literally just apply to my job in the sense that like, you can't be a good feature writer, like exactly like what you're saying, without knowing how to do the little stuff first, like, first off, you're not gonna, like this is the part I always tell people is like, you're not going to have good feature ideas. If you don't know how to actually do like the grunt work. Like, I'm still doing the grunt work everyday. To be clear, I just have to write the grunt stories, which saves up my day so much, but like, Well, I'm not gonna I'm gonna use story ideas if I don't know how to report the day to day and like, be in the dirt and like actually, like know what's going on or, or more importantly, know how to develop sources and like, get people to trust you and talk to you because your most of like, your story ideas come from hearing something from a source like offhand, and then you're like, that's interesting. And you chase it. Like feature ideas aren't usually that obvious. Like it's not like it's just Oh, I should go write that. Like it doesn't normally work that way. And if it was, it probably isn't that good of a story. So I think that's a really really good point that like we I love that everyone wants to be the hero and yeah, you can't you have to learn the fundamentals first not every mean sure sometimes you have your like Michael chase who just goes up to be a stand up his first time and kills it but that's not really how it works. Right.

Connor Heine  1:03:34  
And and, and you know, it can work like that but it like you said doesn't seem like for the most part it happens like that is so for someone who has very much been in that grind. It sounds like you know, obviously you're still grinding but you're very much more out of point. But it sounds like you're at a point in your career where you're you know, much more relaxed than he previously are sounds like you're doing what you what you like, when you work really doing what you're like how how hard was that hard for you? Like I guess it's kind of going back to that question What did you think about not doing this anymore even though you know you found your Avenue but maybe things were going the way you thought they were gonna go even in that avenue?

Brody Miller  1:04:17  
I would say absolute um, I never thought about doing something else I will say that but yeah, I I would say I didn't know how hard it was until like somebody had to talk with me and I kind of like did a reset and like even before I went to the athletic and just worked out beautifully that way timing wise but like yeah, I think there was like a an absolute wearing myself too thin. And I'd say like it was basically like some good friend of mine another reporter and so they're very good friends with was like, kinda I mean, I was kind of sad. I was just grinding granted that just to be fair, that was actually what you have to deal with. When you're young and coming up with this field that you do. You just have to like work Asafa grind but exactly, but I he kind of had to like talk with me and was just like you see strung out and you are just like Like, don't seem very happy, you seem very anxious. And I didn't feel that way. Like I didn't know, I was like, I just felt like I was just normal and, and there's just like, you need to breathe a little bit. And then actually like, I mean, not to get too personal, but like a month later then like, I finally I have like, no history of like, you know, mental health issues or anything like that, and I don't really know. But like, you know, I actually had like a panic attack on the side of a highway driving to a conference in Alabama, almost two years ago. And like, I was like, on no sleep, I was working till midnight, probably even drinking a little bit too much the day before, was like literally driving on like 30 minutes of sleep to speak on some panel and like, just like everything was a mess. And then like at five o'clock on in, like, five o'clock in the morning, on the middle of a highway in Alabama, I just had like, literally my entire body typed up, I like had a panic attack, which I'd never had in my life. So I thought I was having a heart attack. And like, pulled over on the side of the road. And just like, you know, that's it, but, and it was kind of just like a wake up and just kind of then, you know, then I luckily start dating my girlfriend, Claire around the same time. And like, I started just like taking a breather, figuring out how to work really hard on some flesh things to make them great. And not trying to work hard on everything. And then making everything kind of good, because that's actually a huge lesson I advise anyone. But yeah, I started working on that and learning how to, like, still work hard, but take time, and then like, to be honest, and eventually clear, like, kind of like, talk to me like, Rudy, you drink too much coffee, which also I think is like

Zach McHale  1:06:26  
I was gonna I was gonna say something about the coffee cuz you've always been a big coffee guy.

Brody Miller  1:06:30  
And that's another thing. I probably drink coffee. I was like 14 because I thought it was cool. And I became inherently addicted, I

Zach McHale  1:06:36  
still have the adult thing.

Brody Miller  1:06:38  
I think I tried. I tried to be an adult at a young age, no doubt about it. And but yeah, and then like so like I finally like, I actually got off coffee completely for about a year. I'm now back on the call occasionally have a cup, but it's still it's Yeah, like so then like I was off finally off coffee, I was finally figuring out the job stuff I was more obviously being in a relationship probably helped too. And like, I just kind of like figured out like, and then in hindsight, I was like, Oh, God, I was like, ridiculously anxious and like strung out and like constantly worried about work and not doing enough and all that stuff. And so I don't think it's literally just about the job or anything like that. But it definitely figured out like how to work and how to be happier. And then the same time they're gone.

Connor Heine  1:07:16  
Well, there's that there's that balance. I think we all have to find where it's because you're always in the back your head, am I doing enough to get to the place I want to be. And there's that balance of because I think we've said, you know, previously it takes a little bit of luck, too. So like, there's that balance, you have to find where it's like, Alright, I am doing enough there, you know, I think I'm heading in the right direction. Maybe nothing's happening now. But like, it's me doing more of this or that really gonna, you know, set me on a better course than I'm doing out there for a hot sec. Oh, did I? Well, I just was saying like, there's there's that balance, you have to reach between, you know, wanting to do a lot to get to where you want to be but not overdoing it. Because there is that luck factor. And you don't want to rely on the luck factor, obviously. But, you know, a lot of people a lot of people just string themselves out. And you know, they end up not liking what they're

Zach McHale  1:08:12  
doing even better the second time comes. What? No, just saying that of what I'm saying? Yeah.

Oh, shit, I had something to add to that.

Unknown Speaker  1:08:27  
But then, you know,

Zach McHale  1:08:30  
I got it back. Let me reel back in. What else did you do? Once you started, like, you realize you're all strung out? Right? So then you say, all right, I gotta, you know, or Claire pointed out to you that all right, maybe let's start with coffee. Like, what else did you do? Like how else did you get yourself back in balance? Because clearly, it's just like, you're clearly just all work, work, work strung out like, you're really tired. Do you remember a couple other things you did to bring yourself back in? whether that was like, activities or just getting more sleep?

Unknown Speaker  1:09:03  
Yeah, the thing is, I

Brody Miller  1:09:03  
don't really want to lie to you. Like, I don't think there were that many things I know, it probably make a better answer. But like,

Unknown Speaker  1:09:09  
but also, like, I

Brody Miller  1:09:10  
really think you can't under probably like being in a healthy relationship made a difference, you know, like, having, like, you know, because part of being a relationship is like, it just reduces your insecurity a little, you're like, Oh, I have somebody likes me, you know, so it's like, General insecurity is that? Yeah, right. So it's just like, a lot of general insecurities that I was, like, you know, racing with every day of just, like, need to be better and you'd be better. It's like, well, it goes down like probably, I don't know. 20 15% like, because it's just like, well, that anxiety is gone because now I have somebody you know, like so just like I think that reduced and then and then you know, I think the jobs which is huge, but, but but I mean, I could give you a little something. I'm just like, don't be wrong. This is not something new but I probably got better at it was being like, hey, maybe it's okay to go see a movie this afternoon. And like maybe I will miss some news and that two hours that I'm in that movie and like be a little behind on something, but you know what? I'm not gonna lose my job because I missed this one little news story. I'm not gonna, like, no one's gonna, no one remembers on Twitter, the guy who didn't break the story, you know, like, so it's just like and I think I just learned how to like be okay with not like nailing everything or not writing every feature and just like being okay going to do something and I think that took me a while because then like, because then you start really thinking about it. And it's just like, I look at my favorite writers and I'm just like, yeah, I guess they don't really break every story or it's like, yeah, I guess they didn't write every feature. that other guy wrote that feature before him. And like, I still think that guy's the best, you know, or like, or even like thinking about movies where it's just like, man, yeah, Paul Thomas Anderson is the greatest but like, Pulp Fiction is also pretty dope. I don't think Paul Thomas Anderson sucks now. Well, I'm really on a tangent here. But but it's just a point of like, being okay with not doing everything. I think that was just the biggest thing.

Zach McHale  1:10:46  
Yeah, yeah. And that's, that can't be easy to talk yourself into between sports and news. I mean, especially early on coming up, you know, you got to feel like you're you want to, you got to be the one to break it so that you can get your next jump. And it's got to be tough to kind of talk yourself down from that ledge of constantly having to be on edge and be on your phone and watching Twitter to see if something's breaking

Brody Miller  1:11:07  
well, and honestly, no, it's more important than even actually, like, because the bounce off exactly what you're saying. And you're right, is also stop comparing yourself to other people. And that's another thing somebody also had to tell me. It was a, it was a kobiet, reporter of mine, and like, we were fighting about something, but she was basically just like, you need to dislike, stop, like, comparing yourself and like big Matt, going back to what I was saying, like being mad when this person wrote this thing. First start, like, always having to like, I don't think I was trying to one up people or anything, but it's just like, you don't have to, like be livid or just like petty when someone else was saying before you went, downplay it, like, just like, you can still be good and that person be good, you know? And like, I think I didn't really realize I was doing that. I'm like, Oh, yeah, that does kind of dictate a lot of like, what I think about is like, right, this person got this job first and this person. Yeah,

Connor Heine  1:11:51  
I feel like that's a big thing. That, you know, you end up learning is there are healthy parts of being competitive. Yeah, and unhealthy parts of being competitive. And the healthy parts are, you know, really important in establishing a career because I mean, especially in the music industry, like, Can you really be competitive like with other people? Like, yes, you can, like who's producing the best stuff, who, you know, who's writing the best stuff? What band is having the number one? But like, are you actually competing with those people? Not really, like you're more push, and it's more of like a push thing? Which I feel like, do you feel that your industry to like, or?

Brody Miller  1:12:29  
Absolutely, no, I think that's a healthier way to look at it. That is like an inherently healthier way. Especially because like, and this is more true of your field. But like,

Unknown Speaker  1:12:39  
it isn't?

Brody Miller  1:12:41  
Like, it isn't necessarily there isn't a better, you know, there's no standings here, you know, like certain fields. Absolutely. If you're in sales, like, yeah, you probably got to be trying to beat bill Robertson, you know, but Bill's the worst got the Anderson account. But, yeah, so like, but most of our fields, like, there isn't like, it's, it's, you know, especially if, like, say, like, there's a folk band. And there's another folk band, guess what the people who like one is probably gonna like the other if you're both good. So it's not really competitive. Like, it doesn't have to be. And I think that took me a while to learn. And also just takes like a little bit of stepping back and being like, look back on the people in your life who you think are cool, or the people that you respect are the people that like you admire? Like, how many of them were the dick and how you actually normally admire the people more who were like, cool about being good at something and like gracious and like taking people under their wing or being like, hell yeah, that guy's story was good to those people are definitely remembered better people like those people are so it's like, what is being competitive really helping me? Don't like you said, it's healthy to be competitive, but like, don't let it dictate you.

Connor Heine  1:13:41  
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Zach McHale  1:13:44  
Yeah, I remember I saw I saw a line where he's talking about you know, if we just focused on just being happy with ourselves, we would be fine. But if we're always comparing ourselves to other people's happiness, then you're you're gonna feel like you're always behind because always perceive other people's being happier than you are.

Unknown Speaker  1:14:00  
Right when the

Brody Miller  1:14:01  
side note though. My girlfriend did. I did this text my girlfriend say I'm out of wine. And she did just bring me wine. So I had to have a better life than you guys.

Zach McHale  1:14:10  
Really, cuz we've been ripping founders IPS.

Brody Miller  1:14:13  
Yeah, I know. I have somebody delivering me wine. So like, I am actually beating you guys. And I'm winning this battle.

Connor Heine  1:14:19  
I just silently went, I just suddenly azido passed me another beer. So I think it's kind of the same ballpark.

Brody Miller  1:14:26  
That is like your girlfriend and definitely your little bitch. But yeah.

Connor Heine  1:14:30  
Wow. No, I meant earlier. I did. Well, yeah, I don't drink. I don't drink that fast. Well, I'm

Zach McHale  1:14:38  
I'm winning. Nothing.

Oh, what have you so in since we're on a podcast in the last year since you've started? Well, actually,

Connor Heine  1:14:51  
I actually before you asked that question. I think I had a good question that leads us into this. So I'm being Someone in your field, you are a personality in your field? Who is part of a company? Is there any? I know you had your podcast? Is there any motivation for you to become more of a standalone personality like to do you know, like with your Twitter, social media, that kind of stuff? And how much are you like working on that type of?

Brody Miller  1:15:22  
Yeah, it's important and like, you do need to build your brand. And it's definitely something like, I probably been thought about a little more used to, but like, honestly, no, I don't want to be like a bigger personality, especially the more I realized, like we're saying what I want to do like, yeah, if I wanted to be Adam schefter was, you know, in rap where all those people and like, be a news breaker? Oh, yeah, you need to build that. You need to make sure everyone knows you're the one breaking stuff. And that is important. But like, I wait, I used to be like that. And shoot. Like I said, I broke some news. Thank you, Tim. Right. I wanted everyone to know it. But like, No, I just don't I actually kind of like, I mean, I think first off you build your brand, just by doing the job. And I know that sounds easier said than done. And like a little bit. Sure you have to be interesting and have a bit of a personality. And I love to make some jokes in there sometimes. But like, for the most part, like you get your followers and you get like your brand by just being like, Oh, yeah, that guy's good. I think that's the like, that's just more it's a more high probability route. How about that? Like? So? Yeah, I don't think about that much. And I don't want to ever be on TV. I don't want to be on PT. I just have no one

Unknown Speaker  1:16:28  
to talk, ma'am.

Brody Miller  1:16:30  
I would love to be a tick tock star, actually. I spend a lot of inordinate amount of time inordinate amount of time on Tick tock, it's a big fast time of mine. But I got some great ones, I'll send you guys if you guys want to be in my like my pod people I send them to, um, ya know, I just don't I don't really want to be a TV personality. I don't get one like that. I want people to think I'm good. And I think more about that. Now, you know, that, by the way, that's a different kind of thing. Like that's more of a prestige thing than a notoriety thing. And that's one's not better than the other. But I think that's more what I think about

Connor Heine  1:17:02  
right. And I think you kind of touched on this before. So then what, what made you want to do a podcast? Because I feel like that it kind of is more of a step in that direction. Yeah, no, that's fair. I

Brody Miller  1:17:13  
guess I would say it wasn't with thinking that in mind, right? Yes. Maybe, you know, maybe to some extent, and like, yeah, I won't lie. Maybe it's a little calculated that I knew that like t bot would be a great person to do with because he's a huge deal. You know, maybe but I also just love tea box. I think that's mainly why But yeah, I think it's important never to like to always admit when there's also some calculation involved. Because if you can admit it, it's not gonna seem as sketchy. Yeah, I think there's something to that. But also, I think I wanted a podcast because I wanted an outlet. Like, this is actually the truth. I really believe this, like, I wanted a podcast, but I wanted an outlet to bullshit about LSU sports or to like, just like, talk about what's going on? Yes, I see. That wasn't like a story. And maybe that is like the columnist part, to be honest. But like, it's less self serious. You know, when you write a column, it's nice. A state here is what I think. And it's like, it's in print. And it's important. It's like, when I'm joking with T Bob, like, it's like, here's a theory I have, you know, or it's like, hear me out on this. Let me play devil's advocate on this or just like going through avenues. It's not like concrete, it's pretty, I'm actually like, probably the main reason our podcasts might suck is because I think we both live in the gray a lot. We're both like living through. We talked a little bit too much about nuance. It's like, Great, that's not great content. 2020. But yeah, I think that's just what I wanted. I wanted an outlet. And it was more about that. And then like, and then like my producer telling me it's going well, it was like, Oh, that's good, too. I mean, it's we can keep doing it, I guess. It's kind of like, actually, here's what I will say. And actually, this segues into everything that shows about but I would argue on my like three favorite stories I did this year was they let me you know, do a big profile

Connor Heine  1:18:41  
statement, because we don't even know what the show is about, but go on.

Brody Miller  1:18:47  
About after school specials I

Zach McHale  1:18:48  
understand. It is it's our favorite after school

Brody Miller  1:18:52  
is just talk to your fourth grade teacher. No, I was able to do this like big profile on Chris long. And it was fascinating to learn about that dude, because I mean, Chris long, you guys know is like one of the most well spoken just like intelligent human beings in sports. And it was about retirement. It was actually literally about him starting a podcast. And it was like, he knew he needed that outlet. And he actually has like, he does not want it to be successful. It's like a joke that he has. It's like, he wants it to be like good enough to like, keep going. He wants like people to like what he's saying, well not like what he's saying, Let's we'll be interested in what he's saying. But like, it's literally not about that. It's like no longer about competitiveness. It's like, I just need this outlet. And I need like a place where I can just like, do this stuff. And that's healthy for me and like it and he's like, this is the happiest I've been in my entire life. So that is so not answering your actual question, but I still think that stance is like a really important part of doing things. Yeah. But also said like with the caveat, I'm extremely fortunate to have a job where like, in my job, I could be like, this would be fun. That's a pretty spoiled thing. I'm

Zach McHale  1:19:56  
gonna let you run off for two hours and go do that. Just

Connor Heine  1:19:58  
come see how much how much Not sure is there to your podcast cuz I mean, you said you have a producer and obviously it's done through the company that you work for how much structure is there? Not

Brody Miller  1:20:09  
behind the curtain? I mean not a ton in the sense that like, first off when you when it's talking about sports like the segments are pretty obvious

Unknown Speaker  1:20:17  
what I mean by offensive line Yeah,

Brody Miller  1:20:19  
exactly like after a game you're like, Okay, I have a gut feeling we're talking about Bo Pelini being the worst hire I've ever seen. You know, like, it's pretty obvious. But still, yeah, no, it's not. It's not a ton because honestly, it's like, we have our time every Monday after those rounds, press conference, and then we, we t ball, but I usually call each other about like, 40 this is actually 10 we should I should even tell us I'm embarrassed to like how little goes into this. But it's like, Great See, Bob literally talks about things for living and I write for a living but it's like I couldn't keep up usually call each other before we have a Google Doc. And we're just kinda like, I think we we actually make it into segments and we're like, I let's start here. Let's go there. Let's go there. And then we just do it and like are so it's actually embarrassing, because it requires no real structure.

Unknown Speaker  1:21:00  
I guess I guess what I was getting

Zach McHale  1:21:01  
out of sir. Well, it's looser than a radio show. Or it's tighter than a radio show. looser than writing. You guys are finding that There you go. It's

Brody Miller  1:21:09  
a great way to put it. Yeah. Even looser than a radio show because radio shows actually, like really limiting because it's like 15 minutes segment. then hop on the radio the topic commercial 10 minute segment guests coming on. And it's very like rehearsed action.

Connor Heine  1:21:22  
It's a music channel or not playing

Zach McHale  1:21:24  
Yeah, time constraints. Yeah, I

Brody Miller  1:21:26  
also love those but I'm just Yeah, like, Elvis is like ran for hours.

Zach McHale  1:21:32  
It's like, I gotta take a dump. All right, we're gonna stop do a commercial break real quick.

Connor Heine  1:21:35  
Yeah. What? So? What is your producer dude? JOHN,

Unknown Speaker  1:21:45  
first off,

Brody Miller  1:21:45  
he obviously produces the audio quality. Like pushes it does the marketing. But john Hayes actually is incredible. Johnny's used to be he was actually the producer on fine bond for years. Like he's actually like, okay, what's credible? Paul finebaum. It's like, basically like the voice of the SEC, it's probably the biggest podcast. I think it's pretty obviously, like, the biggest sports show and in the world, and I feel like I'm not wrong on that. And at least college and anyway. So yeah, I mean, he does that. But so much of what he's doing is talking with us, like, you know, being like, what are you what are you working on this week? Or like, hold mag is to have a guest every now and then because we hate having guests or like, he's very good or like will give us feedback on like, hey, like,

Connor Heine  1:22:24  
it's like, Yeah,

Brody Miller  1:22:25  
he's he's so good at that. And like, here's, you know, here's, I think you should actually like, you know, like, dive into that more you guys are really good at that are like, hey, like, I know why you're doing this. But don't feel like you haven't talked about that. You know that he's

Connor Heine  1:22:36  
gresini analytics from your, your Yeah. You

Unknown Speaker  1:22:39  
said they're pretty good. Right?

Brody Miller  1:22:41  
I would say I mean, that's I will flat. I mean, I'm spoiled again, to work at the company I work at the athletic is, it's not an exaggeration, it's the best place to work at sports. As long as it succeeds, you know, and like, the analytics are fantastic. I can see literally when people stop listening, I can see, you know, like how long we listen, you know, how many or how many? Yeah, it's just like, it's it's fantastic. And it's helpful, because they'll be like, Huh, all right, they dropped off when we went on a weird rant about Jaron. Tina, you don't notice? All right. Damn. Yes, more. Sometimes they kept listening, you know? So yeah, no, it's the analytics are fantastic. And they're also great for our story writing, too. It's like, Alright, how many people read? How many people we discovered it through Twitter? How many people's coverage through the website? And how long did they read? You know, stuff like that. It's fantastic. And

Zach McHale  1:23:23  
how do you feel you've improved as a podcaster? I feel like even just with listening to our first episode, I just saw so many things. You know, when you listen to yourself, you're just like, Oh, my voice stinks or whatever. But you pick up other things where it's just like you're saying too many times you're, you're hesitating. It's just like, Oh, you got to be more assertive with what you're saying? How far do you think you've come from when you guys had your first episode? Until now?

Brody Miller  1:23:44  
Well, if you asked me, Bob, he would definitely make a joke that I've gotten better, like the host aspects of it. Like, you know, coming up, we have Bruce Feldman, that stuff that he's like, look at you, you Pro.

Zach McHale  1:23:56  
The first episode like or whatever, your most recent episode, and he said something like that. You're like, yeah, we have this guest coming on. He was like, Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

Brody Miller  1:24:05  
That's his favorite thing is to patronize me about how I know how to do host stuff occasionally. But

Unknown Speaker  1:24:11  
it is tough.

Connor Heine  1:24:12  
I had a radio show in college for like, a few months and I listening back. It's just like, every time I said what a song was, I just use the same lines. Like over and over. While you're listening to the Decemberists. And it's just every time we introduce Spanish.

Zach McHale  1:24:30  
I know listen to wake me up when September Yeah, exactly. It's like I don't think that's how the intro should be. Yeah,

Brody Miller  1:24:36  
I would listen to a radio show that's exclusively 2005 music like that would be fire.

Unknown Speaker  1:24:42  
But no, I

Brody Miller  1:24:43  
think it's a great question. I think my answer is mainly like it's okay. two things. One, I think it's something I'm still very much bad at I need to work on is like having a beginning and end to where I'm going with a point. I think way too often. I and probably a lot of people like they know they want to talk about something and I have Beginning but like, I don't know how I'm gonna land the point, you know, so it's a lot and I was like, trail off for all kind of like brambles and

Connor Heine  1:25:06  
I'll be like God and you just start saying a sentence and you don't even know where the sentence is going.

Brody Miller  1:25:11  
Exactly. I've actually I've literally said on air like to you, I don't know where I was going with this when I pick it up. Like, I think that's a big one. And also, just like, I'm always conscious of like, help t Bob out. I think that's the big thing I'm working on is like, Don't try to get my hits in like, yeah, cuz those will come naturally. You would imagine also, I just had a weird like, Jersey accent there. But yeah, just like try to, you know, give him the alley. Like, you know, he's got a good avenue to go this you know, he's creative on this topic. Like, feed it to him. Let him go with it. You don't need it. And like, yeah, almost like a PR thing. You know, the Warriors are great, because they knew if that guy gets his open shot,

Zach McHale  1:25:48  
I'm gonna get my open shot. You're talking about the Warriors The movie in the 1980s. That's actually what I

Brody Miller  1:25:53  
compare most like, I would argue I could do a whole podcast on writing compared to the warriors. Yeah.

Connor Heine  1:25:58  
It's a great movie. I didn't understand it when I was younger. And now

Brody Miller  1:26:01  
I've actually never sat and watched it. I just only know like, the

Connor Heine  1:26:03  
looser watches, so so I

Zach McHale  1:26:05  
watched it. I thought it was awesome. And then I tried to make you guys rewatch it. I was gonna

Unknown Speaker  1:26:09  
say

Brody Miller  1:26:11  
was it and then tried to make it like a thing? Playing warriors outside. And you'd be like, what if we did like our warriors thing?

Zach McHale  1:26:19  
We try to play basketball. out in front of someone like I was gonna break the foul shot anyway.

Brody Miller  1:26:27  
A lot of what we've done in our youth was trying to make things nice going out

Connor Heine  1:26:30  
with squeak. squeaks, isn't it? We don't know. anyone named

Zach McHale  1:26:33  
a friend named squeak. Yeah, bad mouth and his mom.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:36  
She's a nice lady. What

Unknown Speaker  1:26:37  
are you doing? Um,

Connor Heine  1:26:39  
so those are some good tips. Do you have any more good tips? I mean, how?

Zach McHale  1:26:43  
Yeah, you know, it's because we're looking for tips over Yeah.

Connor Heine  1:26:46  
Our audience is not us. We got about about podcasting. Yeah, podcasting. Yeah, I mean, podcast, I'm

Brody Miller  1:26:54  
gonna claim him some authority on it. But uh,

Connor Heine  1:26:57  
I mean, no, but you have a podcast for a company. And the company says the podcast is doing well. And you're continuing that.

Zach McHale  1:27:03  
You got it in there for a year now. So

Connor Heine  1:27:05  
you're obviously doing something right?

Brody Miller  1:27:07  
Well, I would say a lot of it is, it goes back to what I was saying. Remember the very beginning of the show of like, the best advice I give young writers just read everything so that you know, what's the cliche? And what's the boring thing? Or what's the boring thing to write. So you know how to be different. And like, I'm not saying dude, listen, every do not listen, every podcast, but like, think about how to be different. And I don't mean to be like a coward.

Connor Heine  1:27:31  
Listen to every,

Brody Miller  1:27:34  
like, No, and I don't mean like be coward or like, Skip Bayless. We're trying to have a different take, but like, how can you say something the audience doesn't know. Like, that's actually something I literally when I'm making my weekly budget about, like how to write you know, what stories to write or stuff like that. It's literally just like, what does the audience not know? Because it's so especially in sports writing, and like, it's true in podcasting, and everything. It's so so easy in these fields, to just write the obvious stuff, because it's like, yeah, I can just write about the online playback, or I can just write it. And it's like, well, no, why would anyone subscribe to read something? They could read anywhere? And it's like, how can I tell something that they can't get anywhere? And if you just think through that prison, it's like, that is your fundamental thought process. I actually think that's where like most like a lot of my creativity comes from and I think that's very true with the podcast, too. Like it's just like, how can I think a little different and honor that though? With don't force it? Don't try to have a take. You don't have to be authentic if you don't know something. My favorite thing when I listen to a podcast, and someone's like,

Unknown Speaker  1:28:34  
You know what? I actually don't know. Yeah, I

Brody Miller  1:28:35  
don't have a strong take on that. I'm like, Oh, I actually can take this person more seriously. Now. I really can. Yeah, if I if they tell me that I know. I actually trust them come and they say something. They mean, they mean it. Right?

Connor Heine  1:28:45  
I'm having trouble following you. Because as soon as you said Colin coward I have such a bone to pick with him right now. Because

Unknown Speaker  1:28:51  
a lot of bones to pick with him.

Connor Heine  1:28:53  
Well, I mean, I like them. I just I just figured out recently and maybe it's me, but a lot of those big takes he has where he's going out on this tangent. It seems like a tangent. It's a scripted thing. Oh, yes. He says the same like I'll come back in an hour to where it's basically just the show again. And you think you're watching a repeat of the no it's just a scripted thing of like he he makes these little side comments that are scripted or made me so mad when I call the coward man right?

Brody Miller  1:29:21  
He is simultaneously really hard

Zach McHale  1:29:23  
when I say call him a coward

Connor Heine  1:29:25  
no like it's very smart thing he does. He writes out these scripts that sound very conversational. And like he just finally that's a gift and that yes and that he's coming up with on the spot and you know he's making these little side kind of joke tangents jabs at people but like it's all very scripted and it doesn't seem like it until you realize you know, the the master behind you know, the magic trick, but yeah, I got so mad when I found that. Oh, I

Brody Miller  1:29:50  
have so many thoughts on calling coward because called coward is brilliant. Like he's a brilliant dude. He's actually one of the few I don't think it's the case anymore, but at least in the SPN days Like, he's one of the few people out there and this is so hard who actually could change my mind on something? Like I would listen sometimes I hate this take and I'll be like, it might be right. And that's so hard. But he also and he's admitted this before in many interviews or even on the show. He I don't he doesn't believe a decent portion of the tapes he has. He's just a very smart radio host who knows like who knows this is the market no one's hitting this is how I can tap this and get some publicity. That is true. And by the way, that's also brilliant just screwed up. That's the avenue you want to take money that's what Skip Bayless does Skip Bayless doesn't believe halfway saying no. always believe what he's saying. Yes, it's how to get your name out there. That's why they're paid over a million dollars a year each.

Connor Heine  1:30:41  
Right. They're really I feel like they're really pushing not to dive too much into the sports anchor. They're really pushing us Spears now I feel like don't aren't they?

Brody Miller  1:30:48  
I'm a huge see. That's actually the opposite though. with spears. I'm a huge spirits guys.

Unknown Speaker  1:30:53  
William spear. Sorry,

Unknown Speaker  1:30:54  
Marcus Spears, Marcus

Connor Heine  1:30:55  
Spears,

Brody Miller  1:30:56  
Marcus spears. Grant, I know I'm a little better just because he's like an LSU guy. He's around a lot, but like he is so authentically himself. Yeah, that's what makes him watchable. And sure, there probably will come a point because

Connor Heine  1:31:07  
he doesn't. He jumps on the Steven a ranting, like yelling and ranting thing a little bit though. That's

Unknown Speaker  1:31:13  
what I was gonna say

Unknown Speaker  1:31:14  
that he does.

Unknown Speaker  1:31:16  
Everyone JD pardon

Brody Miller  1:31:17  
me knows that. Eventually, he's gonna learn a priority is that that is why he's likable, then you're gonna manufacture that so

Unknown Speaker  1:31:23  
that part

Brody Miller  1:31:25  
works. But no, I love him because when he doesn't try to be like a smart guy. He just tries to be like a real guy. Right? And he's just so authentic and like the joy he feels about like what he's doing or like, what he's saying or like how mad he gets about something is so freakin real. I

Connor Heine  1:31:40  
love what I like. What I like about him is like he'll get very angry and a take and be yelled at everybody. But then like very light hearted after which I feel like not everyone lets that guard down. Azad was take shows, people like he actually

Brody Miller  1:31:52  
showed me actually like him.

Connor Heine  1:31:55  
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you can tell if you want, like, so he's on everything. Now. He's all over the place. outtakes show, every show.

Brody Miller  1:32:02  
Not subtle. But all day happens one day. Yeah. Yeah.

Zach McHale  1:32:10  
Got another question for you? Are there any trends that you're seeing in your industry? I remember talking with you A while back when you were saying how, you know, Facebook was really taking over journalism, they kind of had a monopoly where Facebook had, you know, all these public publications had to essentially pay Facebook for clicks and views. And you know, how, how the internet kind of got consolidated to these few social media companies, people don't really go to websites now. Like, except maybe a selection you that they have in their arsenal, but it's not like it was before where you type in the website to see what's on there. Yeah, exactly. Are there any trends that you're seeing right now, especially being at the athletic where they're kind of the digital front of this?

Brody Miller  1:32:53  
Well, first off, I would say Facebook is dead as a outlet for that. Because you're right. It was like, that was literally I mean, shoot, do you guys remember sec country calm and Lana tan like those, like, they were like pretty big blogs and websites, and like that they were huge, you know, built, they built their entire, you know, business plan basically on like, everything had to be through social, like everything was about what worked on Facebook, if that makes sense, right? And then Facebook changed their algorithm correctly. So probably, and it just saying, hey, this company literally went out of business like a year later. And

Zach McHale  1:33:26  
the same thing happened with like, the onion still around, but it's it was the onion and a few other comedy ones that were along that same vein, that had really taken advantage of that push on social media and that clickability and that shareability because, you know, sometimes people be like, That's hilarious. And other times people would think it was a real article. So then that would send it up. And then again, once Facebook changed the algorithm to make it so that they could make more money off of it. Those ones just, I mean, the floor fell through on this.

Brody Miller  1:33:57  
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, so in terms of trends, I don't think there's much social media based or anything like that the trend really is actually very specific to the athletic, but it's actually happening everywhere, is that what you're seeing is and you're literally seeing those in every field, you're seeing how every single, you know, media company, and like the TV realm and all that they are all now doing their own, you know, platform behind a paywall, you know, like, that is, right. Apple has one you know, everyone has one Disney, and that is 100%. What's happening in sports is that and the athletics was by no means the first but I think they were like the first to like, make that inherently their only model. You know, like even 24 seven sports was like, way ahead on this but still like they still have a ton of free content. The athletic was the first one is like they're trying to be Netflix for sports almost in a way where it's like you're subscribing to the whole community.

Zach McHale  1:34:46  
That's how I tell my friends about it. When when I tell them about you or or my family. It's just the easiest thing to say when something's subscription based, like oh, it's the Netflix of that and yeah, I mean that's a stretch for anything. Yeah, but it's The easiest way of putting it where it's oh it's subscription based not like you're paying for a whole exact plan with a bunch of things in there in the meanwhile that mean I'm not selling the athletic

Brody Miller  1:35:07  
here but the starting point I make is like yeah, you might subscribe through the LSU writer but you do like you are also getting if you're a Packers fan the Packers writers and the and the Bucks writers you know if you're getting everything or you could get the LA writers like you're getting everything so you're paying $6 a month or whatever for like 500 writers But

Zach McHale  1:35:26  
anyway, all right, and they're getting you know, the top guys there too. They're they're out recruit.

Brody Miller  1:35:32  
But know what my point was. So obviously the athletic was kind of one of the main ones pushing this and it was very heavily criticized, by the way and I was like, This isn't gonna work. People aren't going to pay for sports writing and all that because historically they haven't had to, then now everywhere is moving to that and granted that's because ad sales are no longer a good ad revenue is no longer a way to make a good media business and all that stuff. But so now you're even seeing like ESPN, they already had ESPN plus but now they just announced last week they're they're actually even putting like their big features behind a paywall now, which is huge news and like

Zach McHale  1:36:03  
the real like last separate paywall

Brody Miller  1:36:04  
I don't know if it's a good question. It might be part of ESPN plus,

Connor Heine  1:36:09  
yeah, that's big. I just subscribed to AMPM ESPN plus just because I wanted to subscribe for a month just pay the $6 and then watch all of the detail smart videos to detail. Kobe Bryant was both of them so Kobe Bryant started he you know he picks it a game or he picks player and he breaks down his game and tells you what he likes what he doesn't like you know from the best to ever do it it's a cool vantage point Peyton also does it but those are cool things that ESPN plus has I don't see I'm I'm brand new to that type of thing I don't know about like the other benefits of ESPN plus like our is 3430 behind that pay wall now to

Brody Miller  1:36:48  
like, Oh yeah, I believe we know he's pm plus is worth it. Especially if you're like a sports nerd like hell like I watch. Almost I become a soccer in the last few years like I get like every match like is but

Connor Heine  1:37:00  
is that part of it too? Are there other things besides you know, these special documentary type things? Like?

Brody Miller  1:37:05  
Yes, like so many sporting events now Oh, God, so many sporting events are like only on ESPN plus now, like shoot, there's usually at least one sec football game a week, for example. It's only on ESPN plus stuff like that. So much content like that. And then obviously like I think most of their fantasy content nowadays is only behind ESPN plus, or like the Mel Kiper, Todd mcshea draft stuff is only behind there. But then saying now they're even putting like features behind there and like, Oh, I think Zach Lowe is probably only gonna be 100 there, stuff like that. But I think you're seeing that all across. They're receiving like newspapers that really fought that fight for years, but like knew they were losing it, even them are finally buckling down and being like, we have to go behind a paywall. And you're just seeing that more. Yeah, but wait, that's smart. That's not the way you're gonna survive. Like, you're not gonna survive on ad revenue anymore. You have to have a built in, you know, like revenue base. But this is actually the same debate with like the streaming service debate, there will come a point where it's actually you can't subscribe to everything. And that's what's gonna make it really hard. And to be fair, it's also why I think the athletic will succeed and like, it's selfish, but like, because if you have to start narrowing it down, I think we're one of the only ones that makes sense, you know, because like, you're not gonna also found out but

Connor Heine  1:38:14  
I think a key part of it is the bundling thing that's happening with these.

Brody Miller  1:38:17  
That's so smart. I think it needs to happen. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  1:38:19  
Is that just sounds?

Connor Heine  1:38:22  
It does. No, it does sound like cable packaging, but like, I mean,

Unknown Speaker  1:38:25  
that's a good point.

Connor Heine  1:38:26  
But But I mean, that's what happened with TV. At first to everything, you know, it was just you pay you had, you know, you had cable and you paid for cable and then there was the premium channels he had to pay for and all about, you know, that gradually happened to I don't think it's not gonna happen.

Zach McHale  1:38:42  
No. And I was listening to an interesting, I don't know if you guys listen to the Tim Ferriss podcast, and I'm probably gonna bring him up whatever as we keep doing this a lot, because he's one of my favorite guys. But he had on guy Roz from NPR, how I built this. And guy, Roz was talking about what he thinks will happen with podcasting. And he thinks that the essentially the same thing is gonna happen, where you see these different podcasting companies, whether it's, you know, apple, Spotify, or Amazon, buying exclusivity to these people like Joe Rogan, and tricking all their people over so that all of a sudden you have to subscribe to them in order to listen to them. And then they take them off of YouTube, they take them off all the other spots, and it'll essentially become its own,

Unknown Speaker  1:39:22  
or they can offer you to

Zach McHale  1:39:24  
Yeah, it's all gonna come down. It's gonna be on Spotify, because Spotify is now doing video to

Unknown Speaker  1:39:30  
a start.

Zach McHale  1:39:31  
It is. And so what was really interesting, though, was having worked at NBC. Earlier, I was gonna say you're a great person to talk to you about and, and Viacom because when I went and worked at Viacom, at Comedy Central records, and I mean, they had, I mean, they had so much stuff going on with redstone the guy who owned Viacom because he was like, becoming like a, you know, kind of geriatric old man and he was in a huge fight with the Board of Trustees. Then all of a sudden, they're clearing house and they're firing all these people. And then you look at good shows, like shows that I like that, like Nathan for you like, and they're really not getting that much money towards marketing, which is killed me because I was like, this guy's a fucking genius. And, and then when I was over at NBC, I mean, it was just they, it was so there, these older companies can be so reactive. I mean Netflix had the digital streaming juggernaut for years. This is I mean, I was just working there and, you know, 20, from 2016 to 2019. And these guys still hadn't adjusted NBC just recently came out with peacock. I mean, Netflix is far and away the best one, then you have Disney, who is at least an internationally recognized brand so that when they release their stuff, and they have this whole arsenal of things, they can just like they still have, you know, their Disney Parks everywhere. So people know what Disney is. But you're talking built in NBC. Warner Brothers, like these places are only known to America. So Netflix and Disney have such a far advantage. And they got such a bigger headstart than everything and COVID just sped all this up. Yeah. Whereas in switching cut cord cutters,

Brody Miller  1:41:13  
those are the best examples. And like, I mean, yeah, you work there and like the height of their stubbornness phase, and it's like, it's mind blowing, because it's like it they basically had like, 12 years to figure this out. Because it's all really started when YouTube came up and, and like then YouTube started like putting clips online and shows and Viacom is like one of the main people suing them all the time, right. And like, it was just like, you've known this was happening for years and sure didn't really, really really happen until cord cutting in the last like five to six years, but still, like, how have you not it's, it's really what it is, is it's like the old it's the you just you're milking the cow for what it's worth, and you like don't want the End Times. And so you're like, we're just gonna stick to the money cow until it's completely empty, then it's empty. And you're like, Oh, shit, what do we do now? it's mind blowing. Exactly.

Zach McHale  1:41:55  
I saw a great ringer article, Bill Simmons, you know, his website, but it was talking about how it's exactly like Game of Thrones, where you had all these small nations of CBS, and Warner Brothers and Fox and NBC and they're all bickering amongst each other for who's getting the highest cable ratings and who's winning that week. And Netflix is just fucking barreling down the wall blowing everything out of the water. It is it was really interesting to read that, but it's like, that's so true. And now Netflix owns everything. And now they're, you know, they're, they're taking all the awards, and it's just, it's a runaway and all these other companies are trying to catch up. But I'm really curious to see what happens with these bigger companies who have been, you know, the,

Brody Miller  1:42:38  
I don't know if they make it, especially post pandemic, and like, and I wasn't gonna say, but I forgot, I was gonna say she was gonna say, like, an NBC NBC, like, complete, like, peacock has been I, from all indications, a huge whiff, you know, and like, I just don't know if any of these things are gonna land because they're behind, and now they're rushing amounts, peacock was rushed out clearly. And now that's a mess. And no one's on peacock that I know. I mean, all these things. But you know, the other thing I wanted to say is, here's the best part of the subscription model that I've learned is subscription models are actually best for niches as much as like, you want to write your niche, or you want to say it, but like, and I learned this in sports writing in the sense that, okay, if you're covering LSU, I mean, LSU was lucky enough, been good with subscribers, but like, if you're covering LSU, if you're an LSU fan, there's 20 outlets, you can get to get content. So you probably don't necessarily feel like you need to pay for you know, for subscribe, like, describe to an LSU sports writer, like you can probably get good content, like just generic content anywhere, right? If you're going to LSU and like

Zach McHale  1:43:35  
anime, that's your niche.

Brody Miller  1:43:38  
Nailed it. No, I'd say I'll use a small local example. But like, but if you're a two lane fan, you have almost nobody really writing about you day to day and like really covering it in a two lane fan is actually the most likely person to subscribe because they're like desperate for it. And that's how you really subscription companies started that way. That's the athletic started well,

Connor Heine  1:43:57  
I would also I would also be interested in in looking at the analytics for you guys of out of state, people who subscribe who don't people who are an LSU fan, but they live in Oregon, you know, because they moved and what

Zach McHale  1:44:13  
audience looks like I would love to just because like

Connor Heine  1:44:15  
so like if you're living in the area, you don't need to subscribe to the athletics, batch of writers to hear about LSU sports you can just turn on the radio and people are gonna be talking about LSU you know what it means a great whereas if you're in Oregon, you're not going to hear about LSU unless it's a national story. Or you know, you're following someone who's not on the athletics streaming service so that's why they would like for something like

Zach McHale  1:44:41  
NFL pass where you need access to it

Connor Heine  1:44:44  
exactly like for me like I'm thinking of it like I'm you know, I'm an Eagles fan because I live in Philadelphia, but I'm also a bills fan. And I like hearing about the bills, but I only hear about the bills when they're a national story. Not hearing everything in Buffalo because I can't just turn on the radio. They're not gonna be talking about the bill. So I would definitely put out debt They subscribe to something that I could hear, you know, Buffalo writers and analysts talking about the bills because they're the ones who are going to know the most about them. You know what I mean? I'd be interested to see what you guys analytics are for out of Louisiana.

Zach McHale  1:45:14  
Yeah, so simoes on over when you get

Unknown Speaker  1:45:17  
that's a great question.

Connor Heine  1:45:18  
Have your secretary just you know, fax my secretary, I

Brody Miller  1:45:21  
have three secretaries. Actually, I'm

Connor Heine  1:45:22  
glad you're asking him. I only have one. Zack to Zack, can you check for that back?

Brody Miller  1:45:27  
Oh, yeah. Let me look at a beer please pass monitors.

Connor Heine  1:45:30  
I did. I did have another question. I was thinking of to ask me up to a my time. It was um Oh, we were talking about trends and how that you know, this paywall streaming services, and subscription based things is a trend is the other trend seems like with how much more sports gambling is becoming an accepted thing?

Unknown Speaker  1:45:49  
You hit the sweet spot?

Connor Heine  1:45:52  
It seems like that's a huge trend in sports writing is people talking about, you know, lines and betting. Right, that's, that seems to be the case. Are you doing any of that?

Brody Miller  1:46:02  
I'm not right about it straight out. Just because, you know, no, but like, what would I know? Okay, that's a good point. I would say set even five years ago in sports writing, it would be weird to even mention a line, you know what I mean? Like, it wouldn't be part of it. And now it is a reference point. It is like a genuine important piece of context. You know, like, it's like, they were an eight point favorite, you know, and like that matters. Because I think, first obviously, what you're asking, I just like love this topic, because like, it matters because I think for a long time in sports. It was actually like when you're discussing sports. The number one thing I love getting into in sports is relativity. It's actually part of why I love college sports. It's like the one of the few things that's genuinely relative, and a win season to somebody else's amazing season is terrible to one team and amazing to another, you know, like, but, and that's in like, I think it historically in sports, you'd see like, Auburn plays mississippi state or something. I don't know. I was just wondering why teams are using and you're just like, assume because Auburn is the bigger school. They're like they should win or like a teams ranked. So you think they should be they are like a betting line is very interesting. Those things are incredibly sharp. And like Actually, no. And so I love it as a reference point, because I'll be like, well, this team's better. They're like, ranked. And I'll be like,

Unknown Speaker  1:47:10  
Well, no, they're

Brody Miller  1:47:11  
actually this team's a three point favorites. So like, you're wrong, you know, and like, that matters. So it's actually the change from in my day to day is that I'm so loud. It's not in the dark anymore. It's just like part of life. But to answer your actual question about the industry, yes, it's cute. First off the Action Network is an incredible website started by Chad Millman, who was like one of my heroes, former ESPN, the magazine editor and, and like, actually works incredible. They do incredible work. ESPN has now put a while to it. We fascinatingly enough, have not dove into it yet, which is something you would assume as you would assume it's perfect for us. But yeah, no, absolutely. It is like 100% changing the way people talk about things like shoot, it's Monday on Twitter right now. And guess what I have TweetDeck open and like, at a brown noon today, I saw like every beat reporter and LSU and Alabama tweeting the line. Because that's usually what you do on Mondays you tweet the line out, and people need to know that. So it's definitely changed things and it's changed context. And the last thing I'll say some rambling is like, I am granted like a sports betting nerd and not because I love sports betting but because I love the world of it. I love that it's a market, you know, and it's like, it's a thing where you can actually study what's going on and like figure out, you know, logical results from it. And like, so I'll use today for an example. You could be the rain,

Connor Heine  1:48:19  
rain man of college football very,

Brody Miller  1:48:22  
I'm not that smart. But okay, for example, today, you know, okay, I pointed out on Twitter that the line opened at 22 points. Alabama was a 22 point favorite. And grant I pay for sports insights, which an incredible outlet incredible, it's part of Action Network, but it's like a data service for betting. So you can you know, and I pointed out 56% of bets are on Alabama, which aren't that much, but 96% of dollars are coming on Alabama, so it's, you know, crazy money is coming on that compared to and the lion already moved two points and I'm basically just telling like, and that's an important piece of context because it's like, you know, that's basically saying like they know something there's people knowing Alabama's gonna crush on this game and then guess what about an hour and a half later The news comes out that like LSU has a COVID outbreak they're pretty thin right now. And like that, so that stuff really matters sorry

Zach McHale  1:49:11  
No, like the stock market where it's just like, you look and it's just literally like Dude, what information do they have that you don't know? And then the market reacts to that right?

Connor Heine  1:49:21  
I remember the first time I put like a player prop I put like a player pop parlay in for like quarterback to have Oh yards wide receiver yards. I was like, God, this is great. Like, the planet so bad. You know what I didn't look at the weather. It was like our winds and like good. I was

Unknown Speaker  1:49:40  
gonna say everyone thinks they're looking for rain kidding me.

Connor Heine  1:49:43  
I was like, I was like, it's such an obvious thing. I should have thought but I didn't. I didn't. The money was already you know in play,

Brody Miller  1:49:50  
which is terrible. And everyone always thinks it's rain and snow. It's not it's well wind is the only thing that affects product.

Zach McHale  1:49:56  
It really not even rain or snow.

Brody Miller  1:49:58  
I mean, maybe margin. Data shows it doesn't really

Connor Heine  1:50:02  
say much torrential downpours, but like just a little bit later, is it gonna hurt? Tom Brady? Tom Brady throwing a football down the field you don't mean?

Brody Miller  1:50:10  
And it's also like the stock market for this reason. I mean, like, my favorite part of it is literally this part. It's like Monday. Okay, we'll help we'll just keep with this Alabama example. on a Monday you get that line and minus 22. Because you have a gut feeling it's going to go up and you think you're getting in early on it. And then Thursday, you see it and by way it's 28 right now so it's actually the best example ever because it's skyrocketed and then I can now buy back on LSU plus 28. So now I bought low and now I have a six point middle I can hit well first off I can't lose $1 because

Unknown Speaker  1:50:41  
what arbitrage

Connor Heine  1:50:44  
an albatross.

Zach McHale  1:50:45  
Let me remind you that I took finance in college and I remember that's one of the words

Brody Miller  1:50:50  
full circle. This is a good

Zach McHale  1:50:53  
we always bring it right back to the beginning. But no, that's where you find like you You put a bet early on then things change. And then you find where the guaranteed money is made. Like you

Brody Miller  1:51:01  
can't lose. Okay, yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, so that's my favorite. Like,

Connor Heine  1:51:06  
I find where the guarantor gets

Brody Miller  1:51:07  
so annoying, let's talk about betting.

Connor Heine  1:51:08  
And that I find where the guaranteed money is and then I try to parlay that with money that is not guaranteed. And when a loss Exactly. guarantee loss, we're like, like, you know, I'll be doing these player prop parlays which is like my favorite thing to do on Sundays is like just pick a game where I go all these I know these three guys are gonna have a good game where it's like are you know the one is definitely going to have a good game like just bet just bet that you don't have to park like just stop stop while you're doing this. It's really hard like I'll do out brace definitely having over 260 yards there's no questions though. And then I'll be like, and Mike Evans Pressler, touchdown. That's where I get into trouble but every corner Yeah.

Brody Miller  1:51:50  
You know, that's a lesson and you know, you shouldn't always try to be the hero you got to get the fundamentals down first. Full Circle.

Zach McHale  1:51:56  
But I was also gonna say the cons ever since he learned his weather lesson now he bets on NBA basketball games based off of the weather.

Connor Heine  1:52:03  
I do I do. Who's gonna have the most

Brody Miller  1:52:07  
bad mood because like the traffic is bad outside so they're pissed off now they're shooting and and if it's uncertain players do better than that like Jimmy Butler's better but he's pissed off.

Connor Heine  1:52:17  
And when the weather is changing, and you're going you know, from from a hot season to a cold season, the heat comes on and a lot of dry air. dry air and

Brody Miller  1:52:26  
that's a genuine little dry or like, Is that how you get colds is like when you go from

Connor Heine  1:52:32  
one right now. And if I were a basketball player, which I am, don't get me wrong.

Brody Miller  1:52:36  
Yeah, it's gonna say man, I played some wreck.

Connor Heine  1:52:39  
But it would it would affect me a little bit. You know, the dry, the cold, dry air

Brody Miller  1:52:44  
are sharper than the sharps you are at least Yes.

Connor Heine  1:52:46  
Um, well, Zach is relieving himself right now. But no, no, he is not. And we will have to cut that. Thank you very much, Brody.

Brody Miller  1:53:00  
I actually don't know what your audience is. I don't know what jokes I'm allowed to make. I'm sorry.

Connor Heine  1:53:03  
I don't know if jerk off jokes are loud either. But I guess that's something to discuss with our producer, which is just us you lucky. Producer.

Brody Miller  1:53:13  
We're two hours in by the way. So I think like the rules are slightly different.

Connor Heine  1:53:16  
Yes, we are two hours in but uh, if I'm allowed, I don't know where jack is. I was one of the last questions I like to ask people. And I'm saying that like we've done this a lot of times, the only other person we've done it with is Matt. But one of the last things I like to say is I'm with everything you've been through. And I know you've said you haven't had as big of a pivot movement as me or even you know, Zack, I'm

Unknown Speaker  1:53:44  
definitely not Matt.

Connor Heine  1:53:45  
Definitely not Matt yet, Matt. Matt's pivot moment was pretty big. But 360 pivot?

It's a tough question to ask, because it's such an overarching question. But like, what makes? Obviously you've made many decisions over the course of your life, big decisions, little decisions, but what have you ever found there's always a center of those decisions? What's pushing you in one direction? or the other? I mean, obviously, you know, it's for all of us. It's happiness and want to, you know, to do something that we like, but is there is there anything else in there that is guiding decisions?

Brody Miller  1:54:27  
I love that question. Because I have a good answer, I think. No, I think it's every it's one thing I like, like when I talk to college classes or whatever, it's the one thing I just always try to like get across is like, I try to always make decisions that will make me better. And I know that sounds cliche or obvious, but it's just not always the case. It is so much easier to take the job that sounds cooler. It's so much easier to take the job that is more fun or make some more money and it's like, it's kind of like a hinky level of thinking of like thinking about the job. It's going to get you where you want to be. Yours not the job is gonna sound cooler now and, and I thought about that really hard when it came to internships I turned down cooler sounding internships because I knew I wouldn't do anything. And so it's like, how can I get take the job, it's gonna make you better? And like so what's the job that's gonna actually have you do the real work and the stuff you don't want to do, which is sometimes important. And I was like, be surrounded by people who wish

Zach McHale  1:55:23  
you had the opportunity to go to ESPN to write but instead, I think the right answer, but instead maybe it was the Indianapolis Star that

Brody Miller  1:55:35  
that was when I went to the Pittsburgh post Gazette. And the best decision I've made in my entire life, because it was, I literally was choosing between ESPN and Si, which what sounds so much cooler. And that's not a brag because no, it's just like, there's more connections than anything. And but it would sound so much cooler, right? But guess what I did my research, I even talked to their people. And they admitted like, you do a lot of grunt work, you do a lot of like, you know, you don't do it, you just do like aggregating and or you just do like, you know, like, not literally getting coffee, but like, that's the vibe, you know, like maybe you write one or two real stories. But that's it. While like I knew if I went to the Pittsburgh post Gazette, or later the end star times examples like that, you actually work, you're basically a reporter for the summer, and you actually grind on stuff. And you actually have editors sitting down with you and like talking through your stories and teaching you. And that's huge. Shoot, that's why I went to the Clarion ledger out of college because I'm like, that's a place I'll get better at you know, stuff like that. I think that is like my guiding light through all my decisions. I really think that makes the difference. I really realized

Connor Heine  1:56:31  
a really good answer. The The other thing I was thinking about as you were as you were saying that stuff, and I think I've thought about it earlier, too is how much should and do we let time come into our decision making? Like, like you said, Is this the job? That's gonna, you know, sound cool now? Or is it the job that's gonna put me where I want to be 1015 years from now. It's It's a hard, it's a hard thing. That's a great, it's a hard thing to come to grips with, especially, you know, at the age we're at right now. Because, you know, like, a year ago, even now, I think about, you know, do I want to do music? Is it, you know, sustainable to do music. And one thing my brother told me, You guys did? I know you think you're old? Whatever, you're 2627 you're not you could you could even do what you're doing now for another few years. And if you decided he didn't like it, even at 3035, you can talk like, there's no time limit on changing something. Yeah, how I'd like for you, did you let, I mean, obviously, you did let time play a factor in your decision making but more I guess in a constructive, more of a constructive way, I guess. Because no, that's such

Brody Miller  1:57:41  
a, what you're saying? And that's such a cool question. And a question I never really thought of, but like, Yes, and I think this is very, like, running out of status. I'm saying like, so pretentious. But like, it's just so important, I think is like, maybe it's because I listen to Hanky Panky an hour 45 podcasts a day, and it was fantastic. But on ESPN daily check it out. But

Unknown Speaker  1:58:00  
But like, I

Unknown Speaker  1:58:01  
think a lot about like,

Brody Miller  1:58:04  
I think a lot about like efficiency, right? And I think about that in my in my life. And like, efficiency doesn't have to mean dry and like unemotional it actually efficiency can help you be more emotional. And like, I actually think of it in terms of thinking short term is actually like, it might it's it's more just gonna be like a, you know, a quick ratification. But it's not going to be like a, I mean, sometimes it is not, everything's the same, like, it's not going to be gratification that like, really gets you happy long term. So I think I think about time, and of course, I have to clarify that with them. One caveat I always make, which is like, I'm really fortunate, I did get a, I am at like, a borderline dream job like 26, you know, so like, I'm not gonna act like my life's that hard. But still, like, you have to think in terms of time. I don't know, it's like, you can make the short term happier decision. But you're not going to be happier when you're 40. And I really do think about that a lot is just like, first off, I assume the only scenario is going to make my life that hard. You know what I mean? Like, even the harder avenues I can make my life that hard. So I try to think of it as like, it's awareness or like, it's, yeah, it's, it's, I'm struggling my words here. Yeah. It's just kind of like,

Connor Heine  1:59:16  
no, cuz it's a very, you know, philosophical thing, kind of, we're touching on it. But I think I think it is, I think it comes down to awareness. And it's hard to develop that, you know, at a young age when you're making these decisions, and you know, you can, you can say it's experience, you can say, you know, to wisdom, but it does it for me, those are the kind of things that come down to when I'm making a decision. I usually don't make the right decision if I'm not super aware of repercussions, pros, cons, all that kind of thing. You know what I mean?

Brody Miller  1:59:51  
You're right. And actually I kind of landed on what I was trying to get to I finally got it. It's like, also when you look back on your life and this is not like you inherit 26 year old totally About so like, I'm rolling my eyes as I say it, but I really believe this is like you. You take the harder route that first off might have a bigger payout start there. We already agree on that. But like that route, even if it's harder, that's actually going to be the more I hate talking like this the worse but like the more fulfilling Yeah, even if it doesn't work, you know what I mean? Like, when I look back, even on my very short life, like the parts, I remember most of the parts like in the moment, I was like, This is hell, I hate this. But like that was actually more fulfill, you know, or like, that's the stuff that I always go back to. And it's like a stupid sports example. But I always think about this. A full circle, again, America's game. There's documentaries on NFL Network, and it was the 96 Packers one. And it was like, Brett Farve talking about how, you know, he had spent his whole life just like wanting to win a Super Bowl. That was like his number one thing years and years being close. And then he won it. And he just kind of felt weirdly like empty. And it was because like the interception, he realized, nice nailed it. But like he realized later, like, it's because the road was the part I enjoyed, gosh, no

Unknown Speaker  2:01:01  
frickin corny.

Brody Miller  2:01:02  
But it's just like, he's like, I enjoyed the road. And then I got there. It's like, well, now what? And I think that's a real thing for every situation. So it's like, Yeah, and it's just like, I think so taking the harder route isn't just probably going to make you happier in the long run. And like thinking more about not about time, but about what's gonna make you happier, but the road is gonna make you happier. And I think that's actually the real part that we all should think about. Yeah,

Zach McHale  2:01:24  
I'm sure. And it's funny to hear you say that. Because when we ask Matt a question along this lines, too, he, he said the same thing where it was like, Oh, this is probably gonna sound corny or cliche and ended up elaborating into something that really wasn't just like you just did there. And it's, it's funny hearing you kind of dismissing your thing of all, you know, who am I to say or advise this? But I mean, that's kind of the premise that cons are getting at with this podcast, is, it's not like we're trying to sit here and have our guest on and we're supposed to be like, Oh, we have all these answers, like, Look at us. It's like, no, like, we're pretty still relatively recently out of school. Like, obviously, we're still figuring, no one should be listening to me about careers.

Unknown Speaker  2:02:07  
That's the only truth.

Zach McHale  2:02:10  
But it's like, the whole idea is having a conversation around it, and getting different people's insights out of it, and provoking people to provide what they've learned about themselves and through their life. And you can't say that it's wrong, because it applies to you, especially in in UVA, you understand that. And that's true to you, at the very least, but to say that there's not somebody out there that who that's gonna resonate with, even if it's not just, you know, even just me and cons or something. But somebody who's listening, you know, I think you'd be selling yourself short. Because what you said, You know, I found it to be Yeah, it to resonate, because

Unknown Speaker  2:02:45  
a lot of

Connor Heine  2:02:47  
the stuff we're talking about is cliche, but there's so much truth in cliches. I feel like you know what I mean?

Brody Miller  2:02:54  
First off, true. I mean, I hate I hate thinking that way, but it's very true. But I was gonna say me, that's why I love you guys show so far is like, yeah, so don't ruin it. But like, yeah, it's, it's the idea that like, you know, I'm God. Well, it's not like, what's the Socrates Socrates Socratic method that it's like you a, every time someone gives an answer, you give it another question back. So it's more about searching for the answer than it is about the answer. You know, and like, that's why I love you guys show is like, like you said, not trying to give anyone advice you're talking through if people are gonna figure stuff out by talking it through, and they're gonna learn stuff by hearing someone else's journey. So I love this idea. And I am here for

Connor Heine  2:03:27  
and I feel like one of the cool things that I hope comes out of it is people listening to this. We say something that maybe we don't even know what it means, but it totally hits home for them. You know, like, I feel like and I think there was some moments in our conversation tonight that maybe we weren't totally outlining exactly what we were saying, but we are hitting something where someone's gonna go, that's exactly what I need to hear. That's what I hope at least we true. You know, these conversations.

Unknown Speaker  2:03:55  
I love that.

Zach McHale  2:03:55  
Yeah, I mean, and it's been great. Because as much as you want to, you know, he he you always like, you know, kind of dismissing it a bit like, Oh, it's locker I realized, I'm fortunate but you know, you worked your ass off. And obviously, it wasn't easy for a while your freaking dog in it for a while there to the point where you're, you know, having a panic attack. And things didn't just work themselves out for for no reason. You know, it's it's great to see that you're in the position you're in. It's really cool to hear kind of what you've learned along the way. As you've been out there, doing your thing. I guess I got a couple couple more questions for you here. Hell yeah. So while we're along the lines of this, is there anything you would have told yourself when you were, I guess, starting to reach a point of uncertainty whether that was in high school, or in college, maybe when you started thinking maybe I want to do features more, where you're like, oh, like, Is this where I want to go and you're starting to get anxious about You know, is this the right move for me? You know, is there anything you would have told younger Brody?

Brody Miller  2:05:07  
Yeah, I have a very specific answer and it's that it's actually something I'm like upset we're two hours in I haven't said this yet, but like my literal life advice to anyone is like, just take big Well, actually I have to say I was originally like someone purchased to me and I now I live by it even though it's such a specific dated reference, but it's swinging like hobby bias swings, right? Like hobby bias swings was the reference but it's true for everything and it's take huge swings, like just just take huge wax because first off, nobody's gonna This is just the writing part of it applies to everything. It's like, no one's gonna remember the pretty okay story road or the pretty okay, you know, podcast you did, right? Like, no one's gonna remember that not gonna stand out either way. Take huge swings, and it is, it's okay to fail. No one's gonna really notice when you fail, it's important to fail. Because, again, corny, but like, the only way you're ever ever gonna get better is by failing, just brutally. But yeah, and like, and also the only you're ever gonna stand out and anything you do is by taking huge swings and landing him occasionally, even when only land hobby by is Adam Dunn's. The better example is like, you know, if you only hit, you know, 22% of the time, that 22% of Fortune 50, our moonshot and like everyone's gonna remember that and that's true with stories, like I might write five stories and for some ass, and then one is just gonna, if one is just fantastic, then like, that's what everyone's gonna remember, you know, and like, that's just think I would tell myself that 14 1822 anytime I would just tell myself that because like, Don't try to just like, fit in or MIT in the middle or just like, try to survive, because like, that's not getting you anywhere. It's just not so like, yeah, take huge swings. That is my number one piece of life advice. Didn't anyone

Connor Heine  2:06:44  
like it?

Zach McHale  2:06:47  
Yeah, I guess what? It's one of those. I mean, recently, I read your I guess this ties in with earlier on when you were talking about conducting interviews and taking an original angle on it. But when you're putting together a big, comprehensive piece, like with Carly, shoot, What was her name? Yes, Carly McCord and you're putting together that whole piece? I mean, how do you approach such a sensitive topic? Like a plane crash that was on such a national level? And, and talking with the families and not feeling like you're, you're trying to, to pull something out of them? You know, how do you how do you approach talking to those people for such a sensitive topic like that? Not to take this in a different direction? But it was a question. Oh, no, I had sent around that I was curious about your response. Because the piece is incredible. And it's, it's it's so in depth, and it's just, it hits home. And you know, even reading the comments on these people are like damn, like, you know, when when you had written there's like a tough way to start the morning. But thanks for such a great piece. Brody, and it's it's cool seeing your audience really appreciating your writing. And for a story like that to be told the way it was? Well, I mean, are you asking me about how I talk? How do you how do you approach these people? And how do you how do you talk to them to, to, hopefully elicit the answers you're trying to get? Or are you just, you know, you just kind of ask one question, like, you know, they're okay with talking about it. And and you just let them yeah.

Unknown Speaker  2:08:18  
Well,

Connor Heine  2:08:19  
I guess I guess that's where I go, it sounds like, what you're getting at is like, how do you how do you ask these questions without seeming like you're trying to get the attention from the answers that you know, are going to come from them? And actually being sincere about wanting to you know, highlight these people's emotions and and situations?

Brody Miller  2:08:38  
What is the million dollar question might yield, and I think it's something like, it's, it's, I will always say it's like, interviewing is like golf, it's not like, it's you know, you're, it's something you are always going to be trying to get better at. And you might go back to something for a little bit, you might get really good at it for a little bit. You just have to, like always be sharpening it, like 50 year old reporters are still figuring out how to ask questions, but I think it's my favorite thing. And it goes back to something I talked about, like an hour and a half ago, which is just like, which, that's a weird thing to say. And we'll talk in a while but I love it. But it's like, I think I'm pretty good. I guess it like you know, reading people but it's just sounding like a person that is literally all you need. That just needs to be your guiding thing. It's just like, just be a person you know, so it's like when you're interviewing somebody and granted if this isn't if it's in person, but like sit on the couch or then lean forward like you actually care you know, and like just talk and like I you know don't ask like questions the 60 minutes way of just like

Connor Heine  2:09:37  
did you know about the meeting to ask you bro, did you know about the tapes?

Brody Miller  2:09:44  
I did. Absolutely. I ordered the code read but yeah, it just like every first off I live my life by open it. open ended questions or the rule and how I do it but like never asked me yes or no question but because you'll get a one word answer but Yeah, it's just like, just lean into them and just be like, you know, so don't ask questions in a formal way ask like, you know, most of your follow up should be like,

Unknown Speaker  2:10:08  
yeah, God, what's that, like,

Connor Heine  2:10:10  
you know, or just like, I

Brody Miller  2:10:11  
just act like a person or even clarify sometimes that like, you know, this might be like, you know, hey, by the way, if you know what, Thomas is fine, but like, walk me through that day, if you can, you know, and just, like, just talk, like, somebody, you know, who gets that it's roar, you know? And also, yeah, just don't be like, tell me about your sadness. Just be like,

Unknown Speaker  2:10:30  
Hey, you know, like,

Brody Miller  2:10:31  
how do you pass the time? You know, stuff like that, you know, like, that's where you're gonna get first off the good details, not to think of it in a transactional way. But like, that's the actual truth, but to Yeah, like, that's less threatening, and you'll get them to talk. And then like, if you just act like a person, and don't, don't be fake it, but be around. Yeah, and like, show that it's actually hurting you too. And in a situation like this, yeah. That's how you're gonna get what you what you need and what you want. And also, like, I've become close with that family, like, I would like, I mean, don't just be pretty unbiased in this job. And like, 99% of the time I am, but when you write a story like this, yeah, oh, my God, I became part of that family for a few months, you know? So like, that, that's not sure. I mean, and, and the details you're able to get from them for them to be able to tell their story. And, and it was like, what do you do on a day to error? Like, how

Zach McHale  2:11:15  
do you pass the time? I mean, those were the hardest hitting details of it. When you're talking with, with Karen the mom about just like, you know, and and them having to deal with COVID. So they're even more isolated. So they can't be busier bopping around and just kind of going and doing their jobs or their different activities? Or the dads band? And yeah, I mean, just

Unknown Speaker  2:11:37  
that part broke my heart. Yeah. Right.

Zach McHale  2:11:41  
Yeah, sorry. Sorry to swing it there. But it's it's a fantastic No, ma'am. It was definitely something that I wanted to hit that I wanted to hit earlier. Because usually when we get to this point, then we're kind of popping in on different things where it's like, what's your favorite book? Now?

Brody Miller  2:11:55  
You're fine. You can also edit that and I don't care. But ya know, I love talking about that story, because it's just my favorite story. I've done at least Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  2:12:02  
it's fantastic.

Brody Miller  2:12:08  
We'll edit this out nowhere.

Zach McHale  2:12:09  
Now. The silence is nice. It's, it's appropriate

Connor Heine  2:12:12  
to tell that to your producer. You don't tell that to us. Okay. I am the producer.

Zach McHale  2:12:18  
I am the one who not so we've talked with. I mean, you've talked about your interest in passions and in movies. In a lighter note here. What is the most underrated movie in your opinion?

Unknown Speaker  2:12:30  
Whoa,

Unknown Speaker  2:12:31  
jeez.

Connor Heine  2:12:33  
There's so many layers to the idea of these questions.

Unknown Speaker  2:12:36  
I love them. Come on.

Brody Miller  2:12:37  
Let's do this. First. We can edit this out. It's also just Fred's talking. We've been talking a lot.

Unknown Speaker  2:12:42  
I gotta go. Okay. Okay,

Brody Miller  2:12:47  
well, first off, I don't even think this is underrated. But I would argue that broadcast news is a movie everyone should watch. And I feel like it isn't like a part of the culture as much as it should be. It's the guy who like Terms of Endearment James L. Brooks. Yeah, he did the Simpsons hell, but like, one of the guys yeah, like broadcast news, I think is one of my like, 10 favorite movies of all time. And it's fantastic. And it's Holly Hunter William Hurt Albert Brooks. And it's like, first off it's not because it's a news movie. It is actually about broadcast news, but that's like actually not at all why I love it. Just it's actually incredible movie for the show in a way because it's like it's about coming up in your career. And it's about like little battles you play and like it's just it's magical. But honestly like I think my answers are often like let me think like Scott Pilgrim vs the world we should all talk about

Unknown Speaker  2:13:34  
that movie is incredible.

Brody Miller  2:13:36  
It's got to reverse the world is maybe my was quoted movie but no one knows the quarter.

Unknown Speaker  2:13:40  
Mercy that

Unknown Speaker  2:13:42  
my most rebuffed Oh,

Brody Miller  2:13:44  
that's most rewatch movie. It like operate. Obviously, maybe this is like a writing nerd thing. I love tone I love like getting a vibe right? You know what I mean? Just like feeling a vibe that everyone else can relate to. And that's what Edgar right move this guy to baby driver you know, like, so it's like it's more about a vibe and it's about anything and like the jokes and the quirks and the energy it feels like I'm watching a video game

Zach McHale  2:14:04  
that's how I fell in love Yeah, yeah, exactly right.

Brody Miller  2:14:07  
It saw that movie I could I literally like I'm a nerd I ranked every movie in the 2000s one day like oh wow two months ago pandemics bad force like I love that movie. And then I gotta throw Oh, I got one is a comedy when other comedy the other guys

Unknown Speaker  2:14:26  
why that movie excellent.

Brody Miller  2:14:28  
That movie was unfortunate because it like was that like the end of the barrel McKay P. So people like had these like ridiculously unfair like stepbrothers old school. Well, he was an old school but like anchorman expectations. And then like, for some reason, they just like by then their expectations were so just off the charts high that they made a kind of different movie, and like they just weren't happy. And then I think 10 years later, a lot of people rewatch that I would actually that is quite literally the most quoted movie I've quote. It's so good.

Connor Heine  2:14:55  
And it's excellent. All

Zach McHale  2:14:56  
right, I will say I it's it's a well No no, if you if you have more To say because I have a pretty hard stance on this. While I will say all I will say I will say that aim for the aim for the bushes was one of the hardest I've laughed. Like, that's one of the hardest. I've left in a minute. But the thing was, yeah, I sent me on the record even in March. I thought Mark Wahlberg killed that movie. I did not think Mark Wahlberg was good in that movie at all. I found him annoying. Like, I thought welfare was hilarious. I thought the supporting cast was hilarious. I did not enjoy Mark Wahlberg. And for him, Will Ferrell would be the one to and Mark Wahlberg to have whatever it was 30 50% of the screen time. I found his character really annoying. And so that's why that seven, seven and a half for me.

Brody Miller  2:15:46  
I hear you actually I feel like he is like point of his parents feel like

Zach McHale  2:15:50  
it is but I'll only give the character so much so much. Mark. Were just like, yeah, like, that's your character, but also like, You're pissing me off. You know? It's not like, you know, Joffrey in Game of Thrones, where it's like, yeah, that's your character. It's like, wow, you're killing it. I actually hate you as a person. If I saw you in real life. I would hate you. Mark Wahlberg. I'm like, Mark, I've seen you in plenty of movies. I really like you as an actor and you're pissing me off.

Connor Heine  2:16:14  
Yeah, I do. I actually completely get don't think he can hang with well farrells improv because Have you ever seen the bloopers for the other guys? I haven't seen that. The other guys is really funny because like you'll see feral start to go off on these tangents. And it's not that mark is like breaking. It's that you can see him not be able to keep up with the tangents that will guarantee like like the the the tuna. Yeah, the tuna tangent. Like course. That's one.

Zach McHale  2:16:47  
Yeah. Nobody can keep up with that. With that, that's ridiculous. Only john C. Reilly.

Unknown Speaker  2:16:53  
Yeah. Yeah.

Brody Miller  2:16:54  
So I was gonna say I actually agree with that. I completely get it. And I would actually argue Yeah, like he is. You feel even when he is funny. And I think he's funny plenty times that movie. But like, even when he is funny, you feel like it's somebody trying to land a joke. You feel him? Yeah. And that's like, the biggest problem with any performing right is like you feel them trying to perform and like that was the problem. But still, you kidding me? Like I quote, I'm a peacock. You got to let me fly.

Unknown Speaker  2:17:17  
Quite literally.

Unknown Speaker  2:17:19  
That's not even an exaggeration. I say that was more

Zach McHale  2:17:22  
of a line that just kind of sticks in your head. And I didn't even like not that it was that funny, but it's just like a very distinct line.

Connor Heine  2:17:30  
His rapport with with Eva Mendez though is pretty great in that movie.

Brody Miller  2:17:36  
Yeah, and I guess you're right. Like a lot of the best parts of that character aren't the performance because it's like, one of the best bits it's just like how he's actually amazing cop but like, like swole Pharaohs, like, Can you imagine where you'd be if you didn't shoot? Or just like stuff like that? So I get what you're saying? Yeah, I don't even I'm not against it. But that movie is like, I would actually make like a hot take argument and I am like a huge Adam McKay guy, Adam McKay's best written movie like well, it's pretty great that big short, like, Oh my god,

Connor Heine  2:18:02  
the whole sequence with with them getting tickets to the Broadway shows and the water is just so fantastic. so fantastic. Excellent. Or

Brody Miller  2:18:12  
like they even that like it's just the one offs it's like the things that you they don't expect you to notice. You watch it a fourth time. You'll see references or know when to Rob Riggle in the car. What a great Rob Riggle or how he keeps calling him off with the boss's name but he keeps calling the first name and then later the DBAs like call him by his first name.

Zach McHale  2:18:33  
woman's name right isn't it? Like Shelley

Unknown Speaker  2:18:37  
Terry Terry is

Brody Miller  2:18:38  
but then he but he's always like call me captain and the DA calls him by his first name Will Ferrell was a keeper first. Or when they cut to Rob Riggle in the car and he's like anyways then I take the noose around my neck and then I

Unknown Speaker  2:18:50  
get out of there Bartlett

Connor Heine  2:18:55  
line is fucking or less or when they're doing career day and they get a call in there guy some Give me back my God.

Brody Miller  2:19:03  
The whisper fight remember the whisper fight at the funeral.

Unknown Speaker  2:19:10  
I live in that

Connor Heine  2:19:12  
measuring contest. There's a man dead here. It comes in westerns. So good. Oh God, that movie is

Unknown Speaker  2:19:22  
biracial Angel.

Zach McHale  2:19:24  
That wriggle bar misaligned is tied with

Connor Heine  2:19:27  
what about the grandma relaying the messages about the sex I know.

Brody Miller  2:19:32  
Or and this is actually like, this is one that me and other writers laugh about the most. But when Steve Steve Coogan, like toward the end of the movie is time to retell the story. And that but he's like making jokes about narrative storytelling and he's like, Well, you know, I could go back to the beginning and then and then maybe cut back to later for the cut back to the beginning for reference points to feel like you know the characters a little bit. It's just the smallest stuff I live in it.

Connor Heine  2:19:57  
Or you know what, and God we don't even talk about the guns. Good one, two,

Brody Miller  2:20:00  
they put a nice laminate on it. It's nice.

Connor Heine  2:20:03  
I have a left field movie question for you. What do you think of the work of Taylor Sheridan?

Brody Miller  2:20:09  
I love Gerald Shannon. Taylor Sheridan is like one of the best writers we have right now. But I say that wait waiting I have not watched

Connor Heine  2:20:17  
Yellowstone Yellowstone. I've watched it it's not that it's I mean, I don't I don't think it's that great

Zach McHale  2:20:20  
for us non movie Bob Taylor. The top three movies Taylor's

Brody Miller  2:20:26  
IMDb up as we speak Heather shirts he wrote sicario so if he mainly was a writer, he wrote sicario hell or high water and back to back years bad Wind River, which is no one talked about. But that movie is I think so amazing. It's the one with like, he directed me Renner and Elizabeth Olsen wrote Andra and then he did. And then he did yellow. So then he also kind of wrote the second sicario. And then he did Yellowstone. He's like, it's so like, it's a car.

Connor Heine  2:20:51  
karaoke mountain is huge. And then he came out with hell or high water right after that, which wasn't as big that's what like, yeah, that's not Austrian or which ones do so hello, high water was so good. That I think dude, honestly, like, this is a hot take. Hell or High Water is like, in my top 10 movies ever.

Zach McHale  2:21:10  
It's I really enjoyed them. I

Brody Miller  2:21:12  
don't I don't agree, but it's good. It's so good.

Connor Heine  2:21:16  
For me, I think it's it's just like the brother dynamic. So getting that maybe Yeah.

Brody Miller  2:21:20  
And Zack, Have you not seen scenario? Oh, oh, first off, I mean, you would love it but sorry, I'm gonna have to go watch and it should

Connor Heine  2:21:27  
leave your beers.

Brody Miller  2:21:29  
And it's one of those ones where it's like it's like a social network moment where it's like a perfect marriage it's Taylor shared it's like to have the best writer and the best director both like early in their career because del Danny villain wave who did like arrival and like the new blade runner and all these he's he's about to make the new Dune you know and like he's he's just like the good seeded prisoners. He's the good guy was the best director probably like yeah, and he did crash and writing he did not to crash

Unknown Speaker  2:21:55  
why why do I think all

Brody Miller  2:21:57  
right but yeah, so yeah, it's a Carrio was like the goods it's literally about the cartels like it's just

Connor Heine  2:22:05  
a river. Now Zack wouldn't rivers really

Brody Miller  2:22:07  
not many people saw Wind River but I love so yeah. And he directed that one.

Connor Heine  2:22:11  
Yeah, right. First writing directing? Yeah, yeah. Excellent.

Zach McHale  2:22:15  
I'm gonna have to get a couple of movies from you guys to watch just three. Just three movies. There's there's no spare time. Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm gonna have to watch sicario and when river and when?

Brody Miller  2:22:27  
And give a rewatch the other guys? Yeah. Actually, no all you have to watch broadcast news. Even though it's an 80s movie. That's probably gonna be like, I

Connor Heine  2:22:34  
don't care. You need what was thinking going along the lines of Did you like newsroom? Sorkin? HBO?

Brody Miller  2:22:41  
I think newsroom is the definition of like popcorn television. And that's not an insult where it's just like, I love Sorkin he's like I can I literally could write like, I have so many thoughts on Sorkin like I

Zach McHale  2:22:51  
wrote it for a minute and it's done.

Brody Miller  2:22:54  
No, it's like newsroom is bad. It's a bad show. But it's so entertaining. And it's still Sorkin so like it's so super sharp and witty and funny. But so but I loved it. I loved it. And it's just like, that's okay. It's fine. Just not everything has to be like self serious. And yeah, actually, it's too self serious. But like, Yeah, and I say that as somebody who like, lives on Sorkin and I literally think the social network is the best movie of the 21st century and like I think he's a genius but I also think like trial Chicago seven for example, is just like so good at times. So like just unwielding Lee corny and others so like, whatever.

Connor Heine  2:23:33  
There's a moment in in the newsroom where it's taking yourself way too seriously. And it starts playing like goes into this like dramatic like montage of people doing a lot of monologues and starts playing yellow by Coldplay. As soon as it starts playing you go oh, god they're not doing this and halfway through it. You're like, hallelujah. Halfway through it you're like shedding a tear and being like

Unknown Speaker  2:23:58  
that moment for all these characters. You're

Brody Miller  2:24:01  
you nailed it because that's the problem with all of his you're simultaneously rolling your eyes at what he's doing and all being kidding me. Yeah, like it is I am feeling things so maybe I shouldn't shit on you was newsroom with the Megyn Kelly movie, or is that a TV show with

Unknown Speaker  2:24:17  
Oh, no,

Brody Miller  2:24:19  
it's a TV show like Jeff Daniels like no your thing of bombshell, which is the one about the fox news, right? sexual assault. underrated movie also.

Connor Heine  2:24:34  
I haven't seen it either.

Unknown Speaker  2:24:35  
It's fine.

Connor Heine  2:24:37  
But what's the broadcast news? I gotta watch broadcast?

Brody Miller  2:24:39  
I just I can't I really think I think you have all people Connor with love broadcast out because it's Mike it's Ark. I think it's our kind of movie where it's like, not a plot movie. It's just like a life movie. And it's like a like inside look like a little bit. Yeah, it's like, not like a heavy like one way or the other movie like lives in the middle a little bit and like it's just like people Going through their lives and their careers and stop.

Unknown Speaker  2:25:02  
Gotta check it off. So

Zach McHale  2:25:03  
check that out to them. Yeah. Cool. I got a nother question for you. Is there any hobbies or interests you'd become fascinated in lately? Or oh man I wish I was wanting? Or is the time taken up between you know, your job and your girlfriend and then your movies? That's a big thing?

Brody Miller  2:25:23  
Well, it's a great question. Because in the pandemic, right, this is like when people are supposed to figure out how to use and like a lot of people have. And I think my problem was, the pandemic was actually perfect for me. Because I actually like as much as like, I seem outgoing, and all those things. Like, I think you guys know this about me in general, like, I am outgoing, but like, I usually just want to be alone most of the time, like, I'm outgoing, because I can get my energy alone and be outgoing for like, a few hours, like, so. So this has been heaven. Like, I can literally just kind of like stay at home and watch movies or like play some ps4 just like, turn my brain off. So like, I haven't felt that damaged by the pandemic. So in turn, I haven't felt compelled. But that's a lie. Because I got back into golf. No, no. Okay, like I finally I got my club stolen from my car and college. I stopped golfing for years.

Zach McHale  2:26:06  
Yeah. There's no, too good.

Brody Miller  2:26:11  
So I finally like got back into golf full throttle. So actually, I lied to you and then came back. Yeah, I finally got back into golf. I'm not good at it yet. But I've been doing lessons and like really, really trying. That's nice. Yeah. Have you guys found anything? I don't want to.

Unknown Speaker  2:26:25  
I mean,

Zach McHale  2:26:26  
I got into reading I forgot how much I liked reading a lot. Like actually like i i think it was something where I mean elementary school Middle School. I used to read a ton. I love fantasy books like Harry Potter. I loved trying to think other ones like Aragon and anything with a boy and magic. I was all about it. I love that just wanted magic. I wanted magic so bad. Yeah, so when I found weed, oh my god, so

Unknown Speaker  2:26:51  
searching.

Zach McHale  2:26:55  
But nice. But then. I mean, once high school and college came around then it was just like, you know, you'd get those shitty assigned books to you. And maybe you'd have one that hit like, what was it the

Connor Heine  2:27:05  
mood reading for me the

Zach McHale  2:27:06  
what was the mocking Mockingjay

Connor Heine  2:27:09  
mocking the Mocking Bird

Zach McHale  2:27:11  
Mockingbird? No, I'm talking about like you would have it would be like every other year at alternate and then once I got to college, then it's all just like big school books. So then I just got turned off to reading and finally I had a friend who who gave me one book she's like, Hey, this is a fun little sci fi book like read this like under 200 pages. And I was like Oh yeah, I forgot I like to read it and then it just sent me I

Connor Heine  2:27:33  
think assigned reading maybe not like reading I think

Brody Miller  2:27:39  
cuz I didn't I know you guys all assume I'm probably like love reading cuz I'm a writer and all these things but like and I love reading like 2500 word like magazine stories and stuff like that. I don't read books ever. And I think part of my problem is I keep like when I buy okay fine like nice full circle again killing me. I keep I keep like buying these. I

Connor Heine  2:28:02  
was listening to that before people were listening before now No one's asked me

Zach McHale  2:28:07  
first not joke.

Brody Miller  2:28:11  
No, but but I keep buying these like 700 page like Larry McMurtry novels. They're just like, these are like Jonathan Franzen and like these, I think they're incredible, by the way, but like they're so overwhelming. So like read 100 pages. Every time no matter what like clockwork, I read like 150 pages. I'm like, this is the best book I've ever read. And then just like something segues me for a few days, and then I'm like, but I missed a few days off to catch up. And then it's like, this is also so overwhelming to get back into gets so big and I like never read it. So I have like seven amazing books I've started never read. So I'm finally in the pandemic, getting back to this like, hey, maybe it's okay to just buy like a 200 page. Pretty basic book. Yeah.

Connor Heine  2:28:50  
And I'm actually loving it. The amount of times I've read the first like 250 pages of East of Eden by Steinbeck is ridiculous. Like, I just Yeah, like, I'll be like, I got I want I have to finish this book entrepreneurship, but I've taken too long after reading like the first. Like, I'll read 80 pages and then like, I'll take like you said, like something else will come up. I gotta go read those ad pages again, because I don't really remember what happened. I think I've read like the first 250 still.

Unknown Speaker  2:29:20  
We haven't No, no, he still he still did not know we

Connor Heine  2:29:24  
got it needs to be Oh, trying to get sorry, but he can't find it.

Brody Miller  2:29:32  
No, I read the first 100 pages of the corrections by Jonathan Franzen like no exaggeration, four or five times and it's a masterpiece. Like it's incredible, I think and then like I just get away from it for a week and I'm like, I can't go back. So I'm a little bit of a problem with that is I'm now a cliche, because that's literally a joke in 30 rock or lose lemons like yeah, maybe I'll finish the correction. And I'm like,

Connor Heine  2:29:53  
Oh shit, that's me. I think it's a I think it's a product of how you know the time that we grew up in one. Like we said, I think for me assigned reading definitely turned me off to reading. I didn't want people not only did I want people telling me to read, I didn't want them telling me what to read. You know what I mean? was kind of me I maybe I'm just an asshole. Oh, no, no.

Unknown Speaker  2:30:14  
fires me less than and

Connor Heine  2:30:16  
also, like, just the growth of technology in our like, like a lot of people read because it was the only thing they could do is by far not the only thing we could do when we were kids, you know, that really thing with so many things distracting us from reading, which, you know, for good or for worse, who knows? Probably for worse,

Brody Miller  2:30:37  
if so many things now that are like novels and actually hit three dimensions instead of one. So it's like, yeah, it's it's hard even.

Connor Heine  2:30:45  
Like, there's a series on there.

Brody Miller  2:30:48  
Hello, Queens Gambit is Yeah, by a novelist. And it's like written like a novel, but it has its shot incredibly, like amazing director and also like it has, you know, great Music cue. So it's like, what if a novel can be three dimensions? Why wouldn't I watch that? I'm not gonna criticize anyone for that. Yeah. The Queen's gambit guys can't tell.

Zach McHale  2:31:06  
Ya know, my dad was watching that as I was heading over here. So

Brody Miller  2:31:10  
me and Jerry established.

Zach McHale  2:31:13  
He always says you're not my son, Zach Brody is. Well, along that line, is there any one book you would recommend that did resonate with you? I'm assuming it might be around 200 pages, but that you would

Connor Heine  2:31:27  
any pamphlet you've read that, uh, my

Brody Miller  2:31:30  
I was gonna say, I mean, there's a lot of books out actually sincerely recommend that I mean it but I haven't finished. Like they're amazing. Please be better than me. Like the corrections.

Connor Heine  2:31:41  
Read Pride and Prejudice like everyone should. Yeah, people are.

Unknown Speaker  2:31:46  
Hot take. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  2:31:49  
No,

Brody Miller  2:31:49  
I don't want to lie to you.

Unknown Speaker  2:31:51  
I don't.

Brody Miller  2:31:54  
Yeah, I haven't read much. But no, there's a story I read recently that I actually did want to suggest, it's like a, you know, magazine story, and I forgot it. And I'm the worst person. I wouldn't worry about it. You know what, screw it. I'm gonna give you some homework. You ready for some real homework now? It's the best magazine story maybe ever written. It's called the falling man. And it's, I'm going to text it to you guys. And it's, it's by its Esquire piece from 2000, early 2000s. I believe. And it's literally, you know, the famous picture of the man leaping off the empire of 911. Yeah, like left. And it's, it's like, arguably the greatest magazine story ever made. And, and it's basically just like, a look into who that guy was. What that means what it means to like, make that decision, you know, and like, how his family reckons with it, and like, it is holy shit. Just it takes you to it's life affirming and heartbreaking. And like the greatest it's a masterpiece, so that is my calling, man. Yeah, it's borderline a small novel anyway. Yeah. Wow, the falling man. I texted Zach right now

Zach McHale  2:32:57  
sounds good. I'm not gonna send that to counts but I'll keep it to myself.

Brody Miller  2:33:04  
Well, now I'm just happy Connor I reconnected I'm gonna start sending you stuff.

Zach McHale  2:33:07  
Oh, I'm glad it was good to get the three of us back together man. I mean I'm excited for me and cons on this I'm really happy you were able to come on especially during Alabama LSU week I know it's busy one for you.

Brody Miller  2:33:21  
Yeah, dude, this has been like the highlight of my week and honestly was so good catching up with you guys and I'm sorry I went three hours I feel bad about

Zach McHale  2:33:27  
now. I mean this is we just go as long as it kind of feels natural. So this has been a blast.

Brody Miller  2:33:33  
And honestly you guys are this is such a cool show idea and I really hope it grows and like gets the phonics nerves because awesome.

Zach McHale  2:33:39  
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate that and it definitely helps having having somebody like you on that. That you know not only is as established as you but also insightful and dirty not but in in as reflective on your career and sort of what has gotten you here and sort of what you value. No, it's been it's been a dork. Anyway, I'll see you on katan later.

Unknown Speaker  2:34:07  
getting me out.

Zach McHale  2:34:12  
I don't even know what diamond is. So as long as I don't look at a clock,

Brody Miller  2:34:14  
it's fine. It's the same pandadoc man there are no rules.

Zach McHale  2:34:18  
But now it's been awesome catching up with you Brady and and thanks for coming on this man. We really appreciate it. This was this is a ton of fun. Thank

Brody Miller  2:34:24  
you guys for having me.

Connor Heine  2:34:25  
Brody Miller, everybody. Thanks for. Thanks for listening to another episode of afterschool program. For show notes and transcripts check out asppod.com follow us on social at ASP pod. Don't forget to like and subscribe and tell your friends to listen every Tuesday.

Brody Miller

Sports Journalist

As the LSU beat reporter for The Athletic, Brody Miller (@BrodyAMiller) covered LSU during their 2019 national championship season, writing numerous features on one of the greatest college football teams of all-time, and was selected to cast a vote in the 2019 Heisman Trophy all before he turned 26.
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He was the Managing Editor at the Indiana Daily Student during college and later held positions at The Indianapolis Star, The Clarion-Ledger and NOLA.com.